In
"Their Honor was Loyalty" by Gordon Williamson'2 SS Men cite examples of threatening to shoot Heer troops.
1 was if they ran away during a coming Battle and the second was if a Heer Officers car overtook a truck carrying SS troopers.
None of these resulted in shots fired'but i am wondering if SS and Wehrmacht troops ever did come into conflict'even on a small couple of Individuals basis.
Thanx
Waffen SS and Heer Units in conflict with each other.
Waffen SS and Heer Units in conflict with each other.
I think this was greatly exagerated. I never saw any of this in Russia and later my SS batterie was one of a 7 or 8 batterie Wehrmacht unit. We all had the same problems and got along without any trouble ever.
Gerhard
Gerhard
Gerhard
Re: .
There was a "natural" rivalry between any kinds of unit. Even amongst Waffen SS units themselves. That's a healthy thing to have, it enriches the "esprit de corps". So of course there also was rivalry between Wehrmacht, and W.SS. but once in the field they fought as one. Some better than others, but that's the way any army is.Kameraden wrote:Thanx Gerhard
Did'nt think so.
Just going by the threats being made'but not carried out in the end according to the memoirs.
Thanx again
I was not at the Ostfront, but in the west, where things were 'slightly" different as we did not have to cope with the Russian climate.
I don't recall any "fights" between Wehrmacht and W.SS there either. HN.
SS vs. Heer
I am in full agreement with HN.
My unit at one time or another supported some SS units in their fight, and at other times, SS units supported Heer units. There were enough Soviets to fight against.
I also agree with HN that a certain amount of rivalry is healthy. I saw that among German Heer units as well as, much later, among units of the US Army. The companies of the 10th BG, in Panama, had a longstanding but friendly rivalry as to who was the better fighter in the rain forests there, and when a certain Airborne division came and "dropped in" at Ria Hata in 1961, they got their rear ends whipped by a relativaly small battle group.
No end of fun, and no end of pride. Joscha
My unit at one time or another supported some SS units in their fight, and at other times, SS units supported Heer units. There were enough Soviets to fight against.
I also agree with HN that a certain amount of rivalry is healthy. I saw that among German Heer units as well as, much later, among units of the US Army. The companies of the 10th BG, in Panama, had a longstanding but friendly rivalry as to who was the better fighter in the rain forests there, and when a certain Airborne division came and "dropped in" at Ria Hata in 1961, they got their rear ends whipped by a relativaly small battle group.
No end of fun, and no end of pride. Joscha
Wow, 3 veterans in one post? 
I researched this myself some, as it was a topic of interest for me. Not the idea of in-fighting but the fight for resources and supplies between Heer and WSS general staff. Marcus brought up a topic awhile back in his forum about this.
Obviously no in-fighting took place not only because of kameradery, but also because real warfare is alot more serious than one might think. People like to believe the myth of "Heer prestige" or "Waffen-SS tenacity" but in reality they respected each other and utilized each other's strengths in combat.
Higher-ranking officers that don't see combat; such as Rommel and Jodl, went above normal "healthy competition" in that they openly distrusted the Waffen-SS; according to their respective testimonies and audiences.
I researched this myself some, as it was a topic of interest for me. Not the idea of in-fighting but the fight for resources and supplies between Heer and WSS general staff. Marcus brought up a topic awhile back in his forum about this.
Obviously no in-fighting took place not only because of kameradery, but also because real warfare is alot more serious than one might think. People like to believe the myth of "Heer prestige" or "Waffen-SS tenacity" but in reality they respected each other and utilized each other's strengths in combat.
Higher-ranking officers that don't see combat; such as Rommel and Jodl, went above normal "healthy competition" in that they openly distrusted the Waffen-SS; according to their respective testimonies and audiences.
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Adrian Weale
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A myth in my view...
Stories of this sort appear in books by Sven Hassel and his inferior (if that's possible!) imitators but I have never come across any reliable primary or secondary sources describing incidents of confict between Heer and W-SS troops.
AW
AW
.
July 20th 1944.
If i remember rightly there were plans in place for Heer units to arrest or at least contain the SS Units LAH in Berlin etc?
All specualtion now'but wonder what Remer amd his GD Unit etc would have done if Goebbels had not gotten him to speak to Hitler on the phone.
Perhaps if not Remers unit then perhaps other Heer units and SS Units would have came into conflict over the next couple of days.
Anyway thanx for all replies expecially the Vets.
If i remember rightly there were plans in place for Heer units to arrest or at least contain the SS Units LAH in Berlin etc?
All specualtion now'but wonder what Remer amd his GD Unit etc would have done if Goebbels had not gotten him to speak to Hitler on the phone.
Perhaps if not Remers unit then perhaps other Heer units and SS Units would have came into conflict over the next couple of days.
Anyway thanx for all replies expecially the Vets.
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Rob - WSSOB
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Heer - W-SS relations
I suppose that the relationship varied depending on the time, context and circumstances. Obviously, among front line troops, they were usually quite good. However, there are exceptions.
George Stein in his book "The Waffen SS" mentions how during the 1940 campaign in France, Heer Feldmarshall von Brauchitsch sent an official complaint to Himmler regarding the behavior of W-SS troops to Heer units. These incidents included SSTK Regt. 11 placing Teller mines under the first vehicle of a German Army column (to prevent then from advancing onto a road the SS were using) and on the next day the threats by an unknown SS officer to fire on another Heer column during a similar traffic snarl.
(see "The Waffen-SS" pg 115 and footnote #59.)
Perry Pierik in his book "Hungary 1944-45: The Forgetten Tragedy" briefly mentions the poor relations between 6. Armee commander General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck and IV SS Panzer Corps CO Otto Gille during the Jan 1945 operations in Hungary and the terrible relations between General der Infanterie Rudolf von Bünau and the 6. SS Panzer Armee during the April 1945 defence of Vienna (of course the April 13 OKW order, countersigned by Himmler, that Heer commanders disobeying orders would be shot and their families imprisioned, probably didn't help much!)
One incident of W-SS troops shooting Heer troops occured in late April 1945, when a soldier or soldiers of SS-Jagdverband Süd shot 2 deserted German soldiers. (see http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng062.htm) One hears of SS death squads or jadgverbande using pretty rough techniques to keep the troops fighting, but this is one of the few incidents that ended up in a West German court.
George Stein in his book "The Waffen SS" mentions how during the 1940 campaign in France, Heer Feldmarshall von Brauchitsch sent an official complaint to Himmler regarding the behavior of W-SS troops to Heer units. These incidents included SSTK Regt. 11 placing Teller mines under the first vehicle of a German Army column (to prevent then from advancing onto a road the SS were using) and on the next day the threats by an unknown SS officer to fire on another Heer column during a similar traffic snarl.
(see "The Waffen-SS" pg 115 and footnote #59.)
Perry Pierik in his book "Hungary 1944-45: The Forgetten Tragedy" briefly mentions the poor relations between 6. Armee commander General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck and IV SS Panzer Corps CO Otto Gille during the Jan 1945 operations in Hungary and the terrible relations between General der Infanterie Rudolf von Bünau and the 6. SS Panzer Armee during the April 1945 defence of Vienna (of course the April 13 OKW order, countersigned by Himmler, that Heer commanders disobeying orders would be shot and their families imprisioned, probably didn't help much!)
One incident of W-SS troops shooting Heer troops occured in late April 1945, when a soldier or soldiers of SS-Jagdverband Süd shot 2 deserted German soldiers. (see http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng062.htm) One hears of SS death squads or jadgverbande using pretty rough techniques to keep the troops fighting, but this is one of the few incidents that ended up in a West German court.