What were Hitler's plans for after the war?

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
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mellenthin
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Re: What were Hitler's plans for after the war?

Post by mellenthin »

ljadw wrote:No,the article proves my point :as colonel Frieser (of the Bundeswehr 8) ) pointed in the Blitzkrieg Legend P292/293:the Panzers were already stopped by Kluge and Rundstedt on 23 may,and,in his note 25 on P422,Frieser ( not a Hitler lover :wink: ) writes the following:
Hans-Meier-Welcker in "Entschluss zum Anhalten der Deutschen Panzertruppen in Flandern 1940"(Viertelsjahrehefte fur Zeitgeschrifte 2^[1954] 278 ff as early as 1954 pointed outthe agreement between Hitler's and Rundstedt's views.
Jacobsen writes the following about the decisive scene at noon on 24 may:"Hitler thus approved what Rundstedt proposed".(Dunkirchen,95 and 203) .
Unless you can prove that Frieser and Jacobsen are lying to shift the responsability from Hitler to Rundstedt,the case is closed .
Btw ,in your article it is written that following Kleist,the Panzerlosses were some 50 %,thus even more than I was thinking;the fact that a lot of them were repairable after a "short" time,is irrelevant ,the point is that at the moment the halt order was given by Rundstedt,the Panzerlosses were 50 %.
Other points,the article is not giving any information about the available number of panzers,artillery,infantry,and,there is nothing available on the British side.Conclusion :NOBODY can claim that at the moment of the halt order,the Germans could capture Dunkirk .Thus,the halt order cannot be considered as a mistake.
The post war claims that at Dunkirk Hitler was throwing away Germany's chances to win the war ,are wrong .
You are picking and choosing from the article whatever suits you. :!: I never denied that Hitler endorsed the order by Rundstedt.
You have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that Hitler alo rescinded the order by OKH to take command of the battle away from Rundstedt. Same thing for the protestations of the armor commanders who,in spite of the losses they had sustained, still felt themselves capable to go on. That is something you also convenienty forget to mention.
The germans had certainly sustained losses but the allies too. Anyway,the judgment of the commander on the ground is the only thing that counts.
ljadw
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Re: What were Hitler's plans for after the war?

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And the commander on the ground was von Rundstedt,who took the decision to halt the troops.
As we are talking about Dunkirk,only the opinion of the divisional commanders before Dunkirk is relevant ,what (by exemple) Reinhardt was thinking,is superfluous,the only units before Dunkirk (on 23 may) were the 1 PD and GD.If Kirchner(1PzD) and Balck (GD) were protesting(and I would like to see the written evidence that they protested),this is no proof that they were right,because,they had no informations on the situation of the British side .
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mellenthin
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Re: What were Hitler's plans for after the war?

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ljadw wrote:And the commander on the ground was von Rundstedt,who took the decision to halt the troops.
As we are talking about Dunkirk,only the opinion of the divisional commanders before Dunkirk is relevant ,what (by exemple) Reinhardt was thinking,is superfluous,the only units before Dunkirk (on 23 may) were the 1 PD and GD.If Kirchner(1PzD) and Balck (GD) were protesting(and I would like to see the written evidence that they protested),this is no proof that they were right,because,they had no informations on the situation of the British side .
The commanders on the ground are the divsional comanders and below. Rundstedt sat in his HQ far from the front and he was almost alone in his opinion. If the commanders on the ground wanted to go on then they there was every reason to let them continue as bagging the BEF would be very important.
You clearly did not properly read the article i referred to as there it is explained that the forces in front of the mechanised divisions were weak when the halt order was given. Also you ignore all the detail given about the protestations from men like von Kluge, von Brauchitsch,Kleist..Rundstedt was all on his own with his attitude.
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Re: What were Hitler's plans for after the war?

Post by ljadw »

There is no proof that the opposing forces were weak,when the halt order was given,there also is no proof that the opposing forces were strong :there is nothing (even to day) about the opposing forces .
About von Kluge:I would be very surprised that he was protesting against the halt order (Blitzkrieg Legend P 293),and,von Kleist :he was the man who was spreading alarming messages about the weakened position of his Panzergruppe and about the danger of an allied attack (Blitzkrieglegend P 293)
There also is the poinr that there was no need for a hurry,a temporary stop could not harm:operation Dynamo (of which the Germans did not knew anything) only would begin on 27 may .
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mellenthin
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Re: What were Hitler's plans for after the war?

Post by mellenthin »

[quote="ljadw"]There is no proof that the opposing forces were weak,when the halt order was given,there also is no proof that the opposing forces were strong :there is nothing (even to day) about the opposing forces .
About von Kluge:I would be very surprised that he was protesting against the halt order (Blitzkrieg Legend P 293),and,von Kleist :he was the man who was spreading alarming messages about the weakened position of his Panzergruppe and about the danger of an allied attack (Blitzkrieglegend P 293)
There also is the poinr that there was no need for a hurry,a temporary stop could not harm:operation Dynamo (of which the Germans did not knew anything) only would begin on 27 may .[/quote

The article I referred to gives information about the opposing forces. The haltorder was opposed by everybody because stopping means the enemy can strengthen his defenses. There was every reason to push on and cut off the allied forces from any possibility of evacuation.
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back to the original question Re: What were Hitler's plans

Post by mconrad »

From HITLER AND STALIN, I recall that Hitler's personal expectation for after the war was to lay down and die. He felt his family had a history of early deaths, and it suited his sense of historical drama that he would lead the struggle to create the super-Germany and then--while the glory was still glowing--pass away. He did not look forward to an extended old age of acting as the revered patriarch.

During the early years of his political activity, he felt time breathing down his neck and thought he might not live long enough to fulfill his destiny.
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