Is the 84 IR from 8 ID - IV armee crossed the Meuse first?

[noeneors]

Hello searchers
According to the text below from "lexikon der werhmarcht" this is the 84 IR from 8 ID - IV armee was the first to cross the Meuse .
Am 2. Februar 1940 erfolgte die Abgabe des II. Bataillons an das Infanterie-Regiment 525, es wurde daraufhin sofort wieder ersetzt. Am Vormittag des 9. Mai 1940 ging das Regiment in die Angriffsbereitstellung für den Westfeldzug in den Wäldern am Losheimer Graben südlich Aachen. Um 5:30 Uhr des 10. Mai 1940 ging das Regiment über die belgische Grenze. Zuerst wurde die Gegend um Eupen Malmedy durchschritten. Am 14. Mai 1940 erhielt das Regiment den Befehl, den Übergang über die Maas bei Yvoir zu erkämpfen. Nach dem Übergang sollte auf den Höhen westlich der Maas ein Brückenkopf gebildet werden. Der Übergang erfolgte zuerst durch das I. Bataillon, wobei durch Verwundung des Bataillonskommandeurs, eine Weile das III. Bataillon als das erste erfolgreiche galt. Die Division wurde am selben Tag im Wehrmachtsbericht genannt, als erste die Maas überschritten zu haben. Am gleichen Tag lag dem Regiment ein französisches Regiment mit der gleichen Nummer gegenüber. Am 15. Mai 1940 wurde Walcourt genommen, der Vormarsch ging weiter in Richtung Beaumont und Maubeuge.

From other parts, it's the vanguard of 5th panzer who crossed the first on 13 may in Houx area.

Where is the truth?
I need some help to find book, texts, reports of the right wing of the IV Armee 8 and 28 ID.
Can you help me?
Noeneors

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

Hello Noeneors
Do you know this book?

There exist also a first issue with an other cover

According to Peter Taghon, it was a platoon of the Aufkl. Abt. 8 who belongs to the 5° PzD that cross the river Meuse in the evening of the 12th of May in the vicinity of Houx.
In the journey of the 13th the 5° PzD cross the river also.
It was only on the 14th of May that the 8° I.D. cross the river at Yvoir.
But I think that the Lexikon is right when they wrote that it was the first Infanterie Division that cross the river because the other divisions where Panzer Divisionen.
Here below a map of the units who cross the river Meuse.



Kindly regards and apoliges for my poor english (it's easier in french or dutch language for me)
Prosper

[noeneors]

Bonsoir Prosper
Décidément nous nous retrouvons sur tout les forums. Oui, bien sûr je possède tout les ouvrage de Peter Taghon mais la question me tarabustait et mon objectif est de savoir quel unité allemande était présente à Profondeville, Arbre, Lesves le 15 mai. Certains on traversé à Houx ( épisode le plus connu) mais d'autres ont traversé sur des passerelles de fortune à Yvoir et je crois comprendre qu'il en fut de même au pont (détruit) de Lustin. L'important pour moi est de savoir qui? Il est clair que les IR 317, 306 et 365 de la 211 ID ont été présent dans ces villages a partir du 18 (rapport Renner), mais d'autres sont passés avant. Je veux mettre un nom d'unité sur ceux-là. Face au pont de Lustin le 14 nous avons les IR 83 et 84 de la 8 ID ainsi que le IR7 de la 28 ID qui (selon le texte du lexikon si j'ai bien compris) dans la foulée et malgré quelques pertes investissent la rive opposée (rive gauche). Pourrais-tu m'aider a dénouer le fil de ces infos. La littérature locale qui relate le bombardement important de Lesves dans l'ap midi du 14 précise que "les allemands" (lesquels,) arrivent seulement le 15 à Lesves.
Merci de ton aide.
y a t il dans tes connaissance quelqu'un qui parle allemand pour traduction?
A++
Serge

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

Salut Serge,
Oui ce n'est pas évident.
Je vais fouiller dans d'anciens bouquins. sait-on jamais. De toute façon et si je trouve des infos, je te fais suivre.
Quelqu'un qui parle allemand? Non pas à ma connaissance.
Je le lis bien un peu et je comprend mais de là à traduire un texte..........Là aussi, si je trouve je te contacte.
Bonne fin de soirée
Prosper
P.S. Apoliges to all members for this little discussion in french, but now Noeneors know who I am and I know who he is

[Ypenburg]

If we look at the whole western frontlines the Meuse was first crossed in Holland on 10.5.1940. The bridge over the Meuse at Gennep was taken by "Brandenburgers" under command of Oberleutnant Walther between 03:00 and 03:15. At 04:00 a Panzerzug with III./IR481 (Major Schenk) crossed the river. So the first "infantry" to cross the river were members of Bau-Lehr Bataillon z.b.V. 800. So no Infantry-Division or Panzer-Division but "good old" Abwehr attached to 18 AOK was the first to cross.

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

Hello Ypenburg,
That's correct, but Noeneors was speaking about the belgian part of the Meuse river, not the dutch part
Regrads
Prosper

[Ypenburg]

Hi Prosper,
Well if we're talking the Belgium part, wouldn't you agree that it was crossed south of Maastricht then, from Eijsden (Dutch side) to Lanaye (Belgium side). So most probably members of IR469 or the attached Pioniere.

Best regards,

Yp

[noeneors]

Hello Ypenburg,
Thanks for your reply
Your informations are surely good but my research concern the Profondeville area (5km north of Yvoir or 7km North of Houx. it's important for me to find which unit crossed the Meuse at this place and when. I am trying to retrace the advance of the german units in MY VILLAGE and the documents are talking about 8 and 28 ID. (Would you note in the german text above: the 8ID have had a quotation in the roll of honour of the army to have been the first). All the bridges were destroyed but uncompletely and it was quite easy to cross at feet by infantery men on the protection of machine gun. If german troops had only crossed on Yvoir pontoon in the night of 12/13 may, they must reach (without heavy material) Profondeville (5/6km) under French fire to be in Lesves area on 15 may (according to witnesses). it's possible that's right but I don't know and I find more.
Noeneors

[tigre]

Hello to all ; just to close the ring here...............

On May 12 The squadron (1./ 31 RDP) was ordered to take the little bridge that crosses the railway line Namur-Natoye in trench at height of the hamlet of Le Fontaine. Enemy elements posted on the highway opened fire with machine guns (28 ID?). We are then galloped across the fields toward the railroad track. Unfortunately, lined with thick bushes that we were forced to climb up the hill, always galloping under fire from machine guns, and at one point I saw a real opening before me, a precipice where we all rode pell-mell.

Some riders have been isolated (including me) hence could cross the Meuse in the evening by Profondeville. [...] the Meuse, at this point, sinks to the bottom of a deep valley and steep banks and constituted a gorge very difficult for an attacker to cross, and therefore very favorable to the defense. "

The squadron regrouped west of the Meuse in the woods of Haute-Marlagne. It lost in the day about a quarter of its strenght. [...] On 13 and 14 May, the squadron remained in reserve.

The IR 7 belonging to the 28 ID had reached Assese on May 14 1940. Once there, its I./ IR 7 was subordinated to the IR 83 (in the same division) in order to carry out raking actions against the Bois de Nimes. That battalion, yet during that very night and under machinegun's fire, got across the Meuse River by Profondeville and seized the height which overlooked the river bank. The I./ IR 7 suffered 16 KIA and 36 WIA as casualties.

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /IR7-R.htm
Nord. Pascal Mougin. http://www.pascalmougin.com/

Cheers. Raúl M .

[noeneors]

Hello Tigre
Many thanks for your reply. I found as you get the german text about IR 7 fighting in lexikon.
The JMO of french 8 IR talk about several trying to cross the river with "Schlauchboot" on the exact spot of the picture. German troop can approach the river protected by big rocks. There is the only place where german were completely invisible by natural screen until river bank.
noeneors

[tigre]

Hello to all , a brief history about the VIII AK.............

Story of an Army Corps from the German border to the French-Belgian border. May 1940.

On October 1, 1934 was created in Breslau the Heeresdienststelle Wehrkreis III, which was designated Generalkommando VIII. Armeekorps since 1935 and became the new Wehrkreis VIII in Breslau. In 1940 it was deployed in the Eifel and depended on the 4 AOK. At that time its Commander Officer was General der Artillerie Walter Heitz, his Chief of Staff Oberst iG Bernhard Steinmetz and the 1st Staff Officer Oberstleutnant iG Mauritz Freiherr von Strachwitz.

Its subordinate divisions at the start of the campaign in the West were the 8 ID created as Artillerieführer III at Oppeln on October 1, 1934 and named as an infantry division since October 15, 1935 with the IR 28, IR 38 and IR 84 and 28 ID organized in Wehrkreis VIII on October 1, 1936 with the IR 7, IR 49 and IR 83.

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... IR84-R.htm
Das verdammte Gewissen (La conciencia maldita). Erich Mende.
Der Weltkrieg in sein rauhen wirchlichkeit 1939-45.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /IR7-R.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... A604-R.htm
Nord- Pascal Mougin.

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all , something more.............

Story of an Army Corps from the German border to the French-Belgian border. May 1940.

The IR 84 was created on October 15, 1935 in the Military District (Wehrkreis) VIII and after taking part in the Campaign in Poland the last year (September 1939, on May 9, 1940 it was occupying its readiness area in the gap of Losheim, south of Aachen, ready to cross the Belgian border at the start of the Operation Fall Gelb (Case Yellow). The IR 38, within the same division (8 ID) was assembled in the vicinity of Cologne.

At 5:35 hours on May 10, 1940 the IR 84, led by Oberst Horst Großmann, crossed the international border marching towards the former German region of Eupen-Malmedy.

The commanders of its battalions were:

I. / IR 84 - Major Koboldt (WIA 05/14/1940)
II. / IR 84 - Major Retzlaff (KIA 5/18/1940).
III. / IR 84 - Major Berger

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... IR84-R.htm
Das verdammte Gewissen (La conciencia maldita). Erich Mende.
Der Weltkrieg in sein rauhen wirchlichkeit 1939-45.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /IR7-R.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... A604-R.htm
Nord- Pascal Mougin.

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all , something more.............

Story of an Army Corps from the German border to the French-Belgian border. May 1940.

The 7. (Preußischer) Infanterie-Regiment was organized with the creation of the German army of 100,000 men authorized by the Treaty of Versailles. This regiment was part of the 28 ID and after taking part in the campaign in Poland in 1939, occupied positions on the Westwall around Hollerath and Ramschaid led by Oberst Kahlen; on May 9, 1940 it received the order to march by Vlattengmünd to Dreiborn and reached in the early hours of May 10, 1940 the Forest of Katzenbroich due south of Dreiborn. The Regiment was acting as reserve to the 28 ID and continued its advance towards Weiwertz by Elsenborn.

The Schw. Art Abt. 604 was alerted on May 9, 1940 and on May 10, 1940 was ready to march. The artillery group followed the 28 ID subordinate to the VIII AK and crossed the Belgian border line by Rocherath. Then marched through Bütgenbach - Stavelot - Werbomont - Barvaux - Maffe - Hamois to Assesse and Maillen where it took fire positions.

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... IR84-R.htm
Das verdammte Gewissen (La conciencia maldita). Erich Mende.
Der Weltkrieg in sein rauhen wirchlichkeit 1939-45.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /IR7-R.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... A604-R.htm
Nord- Pascal Mougin.

Cheers. Raúl M .

[noeneors]

Hello Tigre
I'm so interested by your chronicle about IR7 and IR 84.
I hope you can show your translation of the Mende text concerning Meuse crossing.
many thanx
noeneors

[tigre]

Hello to all , noeneors, Mende was included here. Now something more.............

Story of an Army Corps from the German border to the French-Belgian border. May 1940.

On May 11, 1940 continued the progress towards Bomal by the Ourthe without contact with the enemy and crossing several destroyed bridges. In that area the stream, of 1-meter in depth, was crossed by a ford. On the evening of May 10, 1940 the IR 7 reached Weiwertz and on May 11, 1940 went toward Malmedy.

On May 12, 1940 the regiment (IR 84) continued its approach to the Meuse, but this time holding some fighting with the Belgian rearguard occupying positions in the heights and woods. At dusk on that very day the 7 IR reached Bois et Borsu.

On May 13, 1940, again was a beautiful day, the IR 84 reached the ground near the river Meuse, the regiment marched the last 5 kilometers, which separated it from the water course and reached the river banks by Yvoir. To our left an armored division (5 Pz) already was fighting against the French units which were deployed across the River.

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... IR84-R.htm
Das verdammte Gewissen (La conciencia maldita). Erich Mende.
Der Weltkrieg in sein rauhen wirchlichkeit 1939-45.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /IR7-R.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... A604-R.htm
Nord- Pascal Mougin.

Cheers. Raúl M .