Gents
On the 13th/14th Novemeber 1941 south of Novopetrovskoe at the villiage of Skirmanovo the newly re-named 1st Guards Tank Brigade clashed with elements of the 10th Panzer Division.
Does anyone know which elements of the 10th were involved in the battle? What was their tank strength?
If anyone has a map that would be useful too
Cheers
Bob Mackenzie
10th Panzer Division at Skirmanovo 13th & 14th November
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
According to Schick’s history of the 10th Panzer Division the situation on November 11, 1941 was as follows: The villages Skirmanovo and Marino were held by the Rifle Rgt 86 and the II./Pz.Rgt. 7, supported by a „Flak-Kampftrupp“, by the „schwere Wurfgerät“ of the 3./Pi. 49, the „s.I.G.-Komp. 706 and the 3. Komp./Pz.Jg.Abt. 90 with 5 cm antitank guns. The I./Pz.Rgt. 7 was stationed at Agafidovo, immediately south of Skirmanovo. Kozlovo was held by the Rifle Rgt 69 and Pokrovskoe by the Krad Bn 10. The I./Art.Rgt. 90 was stationed south of Nizh. Sladnevo, the II./Art. Rgt. 90 north and the III./Art.Rgt 90 south of Pokrovskoe in order to support both rifle regiments.
On November 12th at 9.30 AM 20-25 T-34 attacked Marino and virtually overrun the II./86 Rif Rgt. The I./Pz.Rgt 7 was ordered to move from Agafidovo to Skirmanovo, but Marino was already lost. At 10.00 AM the Russians attacked Skirmanovo from the west and at 10.45 AM the height 264,3 from the north. The commander of Pz.Rgt. 7, Oberstleutnant Keyser, fell. At 2.00 PM the height 264,3 was lost and so the occupation of Skirmanovo became untenable which was given up at 9.00 PM.
On that November 12th the division lost 198 men and 19 tanks. The exact tank strength of that day is not mentiond, but on November 15th it were 28 Panzer III b and 14 Panzer IV.
Hope it helps.
Paul
On November 12th at 9.30 AM 20-25 T-34 attacked Marino and virtually overrun the II./86 Rif Rgt. The I./Pz.Rgt 7 was ordered to move from Agafidovo to Skirmanovo, but Marino was already lost. At 10.00 AM the Russians attacked Skirmanovo from the west and at 10.45 AM the height 264,3 from the north. The commander of Pz.Rgt. 7, Oberstleutnant Keyser, fell. At 2.00 PM the height 264,3 was lost and so the occupation of Skirmanovo became untenable which was given up at 9.00 PM.
On that November 12th the division lost 198 men and 19 tanks. The exact tank strength of that day is not mentiond, but on November 15th it were 28 Panzer III b and 14 Panzer IV.
Hope it helps.
Paul
Dear Paul
I Have a Russian 1:100000th map of the area. There is a town starting with M to the east of Skirmanevo, but its over a kilometer away and the approach route to it would be entirely different to that to Skirmanevo, assuming Ive identified Katukov's forming up point correctly on the map
Now I'm vet Cyryllic Challenged so i could be miss-interpretting the map. I'll post up the map when I get home from work.
Do you have a map of the battle we can compare it to?
Cheers
Bob
I Have a Russian 1:100000th map of the area. There is a town starting with M to the east of Skirmanevo, but its over a kilometer away and the approach route to it would be entirely different to that to Skirmanevo, assuming Ive identified Katukov's forming up point correctly on the map
Now I'm vet Cyryllic Challenged so i could be miss-interpretting the map. I'll post up the map when I get home from work.
Do you have a map of the battle we can compare it to?
Cheers
Bob
Dear Bob,
I know that map, but I'm unable to localize Marino on it, just like Agafidovo which should be south of Skirmanovo. According to that map the next village to the east of Skirmanovo is Mamoshino. Marino must be between Mamoshino and Skirmanovo.
Anyway, I can only tell you that according to Schick 20-25 Russian tanks supported by infantry attacked Marino from the north and the east and entered the village. From there they developed the attack toward Skirmanovo. Perhaps there wasn't only the 1st Guards Tank Brigade, but also another tank brigade?
Paul
I know that map, but I'm unable to localize Marino on it, just like Agafidovo which should be south of Skirmanovo. According to that map the next village to the east of Skirmanovo is Mamoshino. Marino must be between Mamoshino and Skirmanovo.
Anyway, I can only tell you that according to Schick 20-25 Russian tanks supported by infantry attacked Marino from the north and the east and entered the village. From there they developed the attack toward Skirmanovo. Perhaps there wasn't only the 1st Guards Tank Brigade, but also another tank brigade?
Paul
Dear Paul
Well it is a modern map - perhaps Marino was levelled in the war and never rebuilt?
Katukov's memiors mention both the 27th and 28th Tank Brigades as protecting his RIGHT flank. Between them they had enough T-34 to make "20-25" tanks
But Marino is to the left for Skirmanevo (looking from the north)
Cheers
Bob
Well it is a modern map - perhaps Marino was levelled in the war and never rebuilt?
Katukov's memiors mention both the 27th and 28th Tank Brigades as protecting his RIGHT flank. Between them they had enough T-34 to make "20-25" tanks
But Marino is to the left for Skirmanevo (looking from the north)
Cheers
Bob
Map
The map I'm talking about....
Skirmanevo is the village in the middle staring "Ck"
This is a modern 1:100000th map
Cheers
Bob
Skirmanevo is the village in the middle staring "Ck"
This is a modern 1:100000th map
Cheers
Bob
Between the two villages isnt that a ruin symbol?
Between the two villages isnt that a ruin symbol?
And it looks like its labeled Marino in Russian.
And it looks like its labeled Marino in Russian.
ASIATICUS
Re: 10th Panzer Division at Skirmanovo 13th & 14th November
To resurrect an old thread.
I now have a pre-war map of the area - Marino is clearly marked
I now have a pre-war map of the area - Marino is clearly marked