Zitadelle Armor: German T-34 & captured equip.; tanks & SPG

[Kelvin]

11th Panzer division had six Hummel on 01st July 1943

[Charlie645]

Hi Rui,

Among the questions you asked about captured T-34s in Zitadelle, you included one about any "special ops" using them, such as Skorzeny in the Battle of the Bulge.

I am not aware of any "planned" operations of that sort, but there was one famous small example in another part of Zitadelle. On the moonless night of July 11/12 on the III Pz Korps front to the southeast of the SS panzer Korps attack, Major Dr. Franz Bäke, commander of the 6th Panzer Division's II. abteilung of its panzerregiment, deliberately placed two captured T-34s at the head of a kampfgruppe on a daring night march deep into the Soviet rear to take a critical bridge over the Northern Donets at Rzhavets, and ordered his men not to speak German. The ruse worked until the kampfgruppe arrived at very end at the edge of the town and encountered a company of Russian T-34s that finally realized the trick. There are many accounts of this action. For example, it is well described in Carell's "Scorched Earth".

Charlie645

[Kelvin]

Das Reich's T-34 on July 4th of 1943:
18 operational
9 in repair

The image, i used in the beginning of this thread, is just a simple way, i found to show, the information about SS units in Kursk (showing only the main differences between LAH, DR and Totenkopf), that i gathered. And isn't a "official" image-document, that i pretend to full represent any WWII German unit.

It is just less time-consuming, for me, in the matters of graphic design.


Best regards,

Rui Esteves

Hi, Rui Esteves, did Das Reich have T-34- 76 on July 1 1943 ? According to Kamen Nevenkin book Fire Brigades quoted July 1 1943 monthly report, Das Reich had 60 opertatonal Pz III, 28 combat ready PzIV, 33 ready for action StuG III, 12 operational Tiger and 11 combat ready Marder but I don't see any captured tanks or T-34-76 in existence on that day. How many operational T-34 -76 on that day, do you know that ?

[ljadw]

On 4 july ,Das Reich had the following operational:
Mk III s 1
Mk III l 47
Mk IV l 30
Mk VI 12
T-34 18
Command 8
AG 33
Source:Tagesmeldungen vom 4-7-43,"Generalkommando II. SS-PzKorps,4.7.43,1845,in NAM T-354,roll 605 and 'Tagesmeldung"
Cited from "Angelfire. Strengths and Losses

[Rui Esteves]

On 4 july ,Das Reich had the following operational:
Mk III s 1
Mk III l 47
Mk IV l 30
Mk VI 12
T-34 18
Command 8
AG 33
Source:Tagesmeldungen vom 4-7-43,"Generalkommando II. SS-PzKorps,4.7.43,1845,in NAM T-354,roll 605 and 'Tagesmeldung"
Cited from "Angelfire. Strengths and Losses

Hi Kelvin & ljadw, I have the following the data on the SS-DR, on 30/June-01/July 1943:

AFV on hand
Pz II = 1
Pz III lg = 62
Pz IV lg = 33
Pz VI = 14
Bef Pz = 10
T-34 = 25
Beob Pz = 9
StuG III = 34
Marder III 76.2 = 9
105 leFH (Sf) = 12 (Wespe)
150 SFH (Sf) = 6 (Hummel)
150 sIG (Sf) = 12 (Grille)

AFV en-route
Marder III 76.2 = 4 (allocated to DR and not arrived until 30.06.43)


Sources:
Jentz, Thomas L. Panzertruppen, Vol. 2
Niehorster, Leo W.G. Waffen-SS Higher Headquarters and Mechanized Formation 04.07.1943.


Regards
Rui

[Rui Esteves]

I also have data on operational AFV in DR:

July: 04 / 12 / 18
Pz III = 48 / 38 / 37
Pz IV = 30 / 20 / 56
Pz VI = 12 / 2 / 11
T-34 = 18 / 12 / 2
StuG = 33 / 25 / 24
Marder = 10 / 9 / 9


Regards
Rui

[Rui Esteves]

Das Reich T-34 status in July 1943:

operational / in repair
04 July = 18 / 9
11 July = 15 / ?
12 July = 12 / ?
16 July = 11 / ?
18 July = 02 / ?
21 July = 17 / 1?

Das Reich received 25 T-34 of various models (Model 1941; 1942; 1943) in May 1943.
The DR's T-34 were divided between 9. and 10. Kompanien from the SS-Panzerjäger Abteilung 2 that was acting as the III.Abteilung in SS-Panzer Regiment 2. The 10.kompanie was disbanded in 01.08.1943.


Regards
Rui

[Rui Esteves]

DR's T-34 tank aces during Zitadelle operation:
9.kompanie
SS Hauptscharführer Zinn (company commander, KIA 07.07.1943)
SS Oberscharführer Josef Naber (platoon commander)

10.kompanie
SS Hauptscharführer Emil Seibold (platoon commander adjutant, 23 tanks were destroyed in July-August 1943)


Regards
Rui

[Rui Esteves]

The T-34 wasn't the only captured AFV at Kursk in 1943, there was also a BA-64B in Das Reich.

(there is a photo showing a BA-64B with a DR Tiger):
Robert C. Stern - SS Armor: A Pictorial History of the Armored Formations of the Waffen-SS

(the same previous photo, but showing only the BA-64B):
Werner Regenberg - Captured Armored Cars and Other Vehicles in Wehrmacht Service in World War II (Beutepanzer unterm Balkenkreuz: Panzerspähwagen und gepanzerte Radfahrzeuge)

Was this vehicle from s.Pz.Kp. or Pz. Aufkl. Abt. or from Propaganda Zug?


Regards
Rui

[Kelvin]

Was there any T-34 still in service in Sept 1943 ?

[Kelvin]

With the recapture of Kharkov in March of 1943, by II.SS-Panzer Corps, were taken as Beutepanzers, about 50 T-34/76, to Das Reich were given 25, and to Totenkopf, 22 tanks.
Seems that only DR, used them in Kursk. Between 12-20 operational tanks. (What happened to Totenkopf's T-34?)

There is some evidence of T-34 tanks in new III.SS-Pz.Abt / SS-Pz.Rgt . 2 / 2.SS-Panzer Division "Das Reich", but there is also, some information about the use of T-34 in the SS-Panzerjäger Abt. 2. Only seen, photos of the 10.Panzer-Kompanie...

The main reason of the use of T-34 in Pz.Abt of DR, was the losses. And because one his panzer-abteilung were in Germany, to receive the new Panther? ( One of Pz.Abt. of LAH were also back in Germany, at that time?)

Das Reich used also BA-64 armored cars in Russia. It was used in Zitadelle?

(There was, any "special op" with captured Soviet tanks, like Skorzeny's disguised AFV's in the Ardennes offensive?)

T-34 and other captured equipment were also used by other units in Kursk, but there is little info about them...


Rui Esteves

Hello Rui Esteves, regarding Totenkopf 's T-34, I have Totenkopf monthly report in Sept 1943, there was one column called other battle panzer vehicles and its authorized figures were 22 and had 29 ready for action, perhaps it was T-34, I am not sure.

[Rui Esteves]

Was there any T-34 still in service in Sept 1943 ?

The 10./SS-Pz.Rgt.2/SS-Pz.Gren.Div "Das Reich" was disbanded on 01.August.1943. I don't know if their T-34 were all destroyed or passed to another company. Das Reich also had a 9. kompanie on the SS-Pz.Rgt.2 that used T-34. Both 9. and 10. fought at Kursk offensive. Also the remaining T-34 could be transferred to Totenkopf? It seems that Das Reich had some turretless T-34 as Berge T-34 in Normandy 1944.


Regards,
Rui Esteves

[Rui Esteves]

With the recapture of Kharkov in March of 1943, by II.SS-Panzer Corps, were taken as Beutepanzers, about 50 T-34/76, to Das Reich were given 25, and to Totenkopf, 22 tanks.
Seems that only DR, used them in Kursk. Between 12-20 operational tanks. (What happened to Totenkopf's T-34?)

There is some evidence of T-34 tanks in new III.SS-Pz.Abt / SS-Pz.Rgt . 2 / 2.SS-Panzer Division "Das Reich", but there is also, some information about the use of T-34 in the SS-Panzerjäger Abt. 2. Only seen, photos of the 10.Panzer-Kompanie...

The main reason of the use of T-34 in Pz.Abt of DR, was the losses. And because one his panzer-abteilung were in Germany, to receive the new Panther? ( One of Pz.Abt. of LAH were also back in Germany, at that time?)

Das Reich used also BA-64 armored cars in Russia. It was used in Zitadelle?

(There was, any "special op" with captured Soviet tanks, like Skorzeny's disguised AFV's in the Ardennes offensive?)

T-34 and other captured equipment were also used by other units in Kursk, but there is little info about them...


Rui Esteves

The SS-Panzerjäger Abt. 2 became the 3rd battalion on SS-Panzer Regiment 2 (III.SS-Pz.Abt), formed with T-34 captured and repaired in Kharkov, March 1943.


Regards
Rui Esteves

[Kelvin]

Apart from Das Reich, 17. Panzer division and 31. infanterie division also had two T-34 each.

[Kelvin]

Was there any T-34 still in service in Sept 1943 ?

The 10./SS-Pz.Rgt.2/SS-Pz.Gren.Div "Das Reich" was disbanded on 01.August.1943. I don't know if their T-34 were all destroyed or passed to another company. Das Reich also had a 9. kompanie on the SS-Pz.Rgt.2 that used T-34. Both 9. and 10. fought at Kursk offensive. Also the remaining T-34 could be transferred to Totenkopf? It seems that Das Reich had some turretless T-34 as Berge T-34 in Normandy 1944.


Regards,
Rui Esteves

Hi, Rui Esteves, did Das Reich used T-34 in Battle of Bogodukhov in Aug 1943 ?