How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

[phylo_roadking]

Andy - its the same in one important parameter - in times of straitened manpower or panic measures....the British moved first and furtherest at putting minors into army uniform. Not only were 17-18 year olds allowed into potential front-line formations in 1940...but they nationally mobilised ALL 17 year olds in 1942, remember. BEFORE Germany did.

[Cott Tiger]

Phylo,

Totally disagree. Hitler had effectively "mobilised" the whole of Germany's youth popluation when he introduced the 1936 Hitlerjugend Decree.
It quite clearly states that membership was compulsory and it’s main objective was to train Germany's youth for National Military Service.

The Home Guard was a military organisation, not a youth organisation. As we have already discussed, most (if not all) modern armies recruited people in their 18th year of age. That is not exceptional. It wasn’t exceptional then and it is still isn’t now.

The HJ was exceptional as membership was compulsory and it used youths and children, not only as a reserve of man-power, but also in active war duties AND, most importantly, in active front line combat roles.

Apart from all the political and racial indoctrination, this fact alone clearly distinguishes the organisation from the Boy Scouts and indeed any other British youth organisation.

British children were not forced into the Boy Scouts or any other youth organisation. They were not politically and racially indoctrinated. They were not used as a reserve of manpower for the military. They were not used extensively for wartime duties and they were certainly not used as front-line combat troops.

The British government and establishment didn’t view youths and children in anything like the same way as Hitler and the Nazis did. This is clearly reflected in its youth policies and organizations.

[Cott Tiger]

Some more detail on how German youths and children were in active service or military training:

Flak Crews

In August 1940, British air raids began against Berlin in retaliation for the German bombing of London. Hitler Youth boys had been functioning as air raid wardens and anti-aircraft (flak) gun assistants in Berlin and other cities since the outbreak of war, and now saw their first action.

America's entry into the war in December of 1941 resulted in a massive influx of air power into England. The first thousand bomber raid occurred in May 1942 against Cologne. In that same month, newly created Wehrertüchtigungslager or WELS (Defense Strengthening Camps) went into operation in Germany providing three weeks of mandatory war training for all boys aged 16 to 18 under the supervision of the Wehrmacht. They learned how to handle German infantry weapons including various pistols, machine-guns, hand grenades and Panzerfausts (German bazookas).

By the beginning of 1943, Hitler's armies were stretched to the limit, battling the combined forces of the Soviet Union, United States, England and other Allies. By this time, most able-bodied German men were in the armed services. As a result, starting on January 26, 1943, anti-aircraft batteries were officially manned solely by Hitler Youth boys.

At first they were stationed at flak guns near their homes, but as the overall situation deteriorated, they were transferred all over Germany. The younger boys were assigned to operate search lights and assist with communications, often riding their bicycles as dispatch riders. In October 1943, a search light battery received a direct bomb hit, killing the entire crew of boys, all aged 14 and under.

Following each bombing raid, Hitler Youths assisted in neighborhood cleanup and helped relocate bombed out civilians. They knocked on doors looking for unused rooms in undamaged houses or apartments. Occupants refusing to let in the new 'tenants' were reported to the local police and could likely expect a visit from Gestapo.

KLV Camps

As the Allies stepped up their bombing campaign, the Nazis began evacuating children from threatened cities into Hitler Youth KLV (Kinderlandverschickung) camps located mainly in the rural regions of East Prussia, the Warthegau section of Poland, Upper Silesia, and Slovakia.

From 1940 to 1945, over 2.8 million German children were sent to these camps. There were separate KLV camps for boys and girls. About 5,000 camps were eventually in operation, varying greatly in sizes from the smallest which had 18 children to the largest which held 1,200. Each camp was run by a Nazi approved teacher and a Hitler Youth squad leader. The camps replaced big city grammar schools, most of which were closed due to the bombing. Reluctant parents were forced to send their children away to the camps.

Life inside the boys' camp was harsh, featuring a dreary routine of roll calls, para-military field exercises, hikes, marches, recitation of Nazi slogans and propaganda, along with endless singing of Hitler Youth songs and Nazi anthems. School work was neglected while supreme emphasis was placed on the boys learning to automatically snap-to attention at any time of the day or night and to obey all orders unconditionally "without any if or buts."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/h ... ldiers.htm

Your assertions that:

the British moved first and furtherest at putting minors into army uniform. Not only were 17-18 year olds allowed into potential front-line formations in 1940...but they nationally mobilised ALL 17 year olds in 1942, remember. BEFORE Germany did.

..and…

the British government was giving FAR more 17-18 year olds a military role FAR earlier than the HJ was

Simply don’t seem to stand upto scrutiny.

Reagrds,

André

[phylo_roadking]

Andre - you're making several mistakes.

The very obvious one is that you're equating the term "national service" as used in connection with the HJ with the term "National Service" as enshrined in the 1942 National Service Act.

It quite clearly states that membership was compulsory

But it didn't work like that - by the end of 1937 only 82% of German boys belonged to it. PLEASE don't tell me that's too hard to undertand - that making membership in 1936 failed despite the threats of heavy jail sentences for parents. This was beefed up in 1939 with threats of compulsory removal from parents and putting children into state orphanages...but STILL didn't make membership universal.

The Home Guard was a military organisation, not a youth organisation.

THAT'S my point - the British mobilised their late teens far earlier than the Nazis did.

most (if not all) modern armies recruited people in their 18th year of age. That is not exceptional. It wasn’t exceptional then and it is still isn’t now.

...is obscuring the point that in Britain, boys didn't receive their Call-up papers in their "18th year" they received them on or after their 18th birthday i.e. their 19th year.

The HJ was exceptional as membership was compulsory and it used youths and children, not only as a reserve of man-power, but also in active war duties AND, most importantly, in active front line combat roles

No. As of 1942, membership of the Home Guard was compulsory for 17 year olds. Service in the Home Guard was regarded as full military service while in uniform, with full responsibility for personal arms etc. and MOST importantly under full military discipline - Kings' Regulations - at that time.

You also seem to be intent on missing that in the UK - the age of majority was 21; 17 year olds were legally and in reality regarded still as children. There was no pseudo-status of "young adults".

In other words - in the UK from 1940 and compulsorily from 1942 - children bore arms in military units under military discipline. 1942 made this compulsory without Nazi Germany's intermediate step of belonging to a youth organisation.

"They were not politically and racially indoctrinated"

Really?

On my honour I promise that I will do my best—
To do my duty to God and the King
To help other people at all times
To obey the Scout Law.

...seems to put duty to the king above anything else under God.

The British government and establishment didn’t view youths and children in anything like the same way as Hitler and the Nazis did.

Quite true - they mandated them into military uniform WITHOUT an intermediate step...

They were not used as a reserve of manpower for the military. They were not used extensively for wartime duties and they were certainly not used as front-line combat troops

17 year olds were, and far more of them in 1942 than in Germany in 1943.

[phylo_roadking]

Your assertions that:

the British moved first and furtherest at putting minors into army uniform. Not only were 17-18 year olds allowed into potential front-line formations in 1940...but they nationally mobilised ALL 17 year olds in 1942, remember. BEFORE Germany did.

..and…

the British government was giving FAR more 17-18 year olds a military role FAR earlier than the HJ was

Simply don’t seem to stand upto scrutiny.

...is entirely wrong. Or do you wish to dismiss the ENTIRE history of the Home Guard and National Service after 1942?

Your material shows that German youths were receiving training in 1942 - British 17yr olds were receiving training AND serving in uniform and under King's Regulations as full servicemen in 1940, with this becoming COMPULSORY and 100% in 1942.

[Cott Tiger]

Phylo,

The very obvious one is that you're equating the term "national service" as used in connection with the HJ with the term "National Service" as enshrined in the 1942 National Service Act.

There is no ambiguity as to what is meant by National Service in this instance. Males graduating from the Hitler Youth were expected to go straight into the German Armed Forces and they were explicitly trained and groomed for that eventuality. It was its primary aim and Hitler himself said as much.

But it didn't work like that - by the end of 1937 only 82% of German boys belonged to it. PLEASE don't tell me that's too hard to undertand - that making membership in 1936 failed despite the threats of heavy jail sentences for parents. This was beefed up in 1939 with threats of compulsory removal from parents and putting children into state orphanages...but STILL didn't make membership universal.

There are always going to be some that “slipped through the net” as it were. 82% is a pretty high number and that figure actually increased in the immediate pre-war period (late 1938/ early 1939) Just because some children managed to avoid membership (by hook or by crook) doesn’t in any way negate the fact that membership was compulsory and there were punishments for those that failed to comply.

…the British mobilised their late teens far earlier than the Nazis did.

You continually ignore the fact that HJ children as young as twelve were performing full military duties (manning AA guns/searchlights and fighting on the front line in Berlin).

No. As of 1942, membership of the Home Guard was compulsory for 17 year olds. Service in the Home Guard was regarded as full military service while in uniform, with full responsibility for personal arms etc. and MOST importantly under full military discipline - Kings' Regulations - at that time.

I ‘m unconvinced on this point and need clarification. Certainly in the beginning (1940/1) the Home Guard was definitely not regarded as “full military service”. It was unpaid, largely made up of volunteers (supplemented by compulsory enrolment where required later) and was not subject to military codes of conduct. It wasn’t even under the full control of the British Army. Whether this changed as the war went on I’m unsure, can you provide clarification on this matter.

They were not used as a reserve of manpower for the military. They were not used extensively for wartime duties and they were certainly not used as front-line combat troops

17 year olds were, and far more of them in 1942 than in Germany in 1943.

What statistics do you have to back up this claim? At its height the Home Guard ranks numbered a little over 1.7 million. The last accurate figures for the HJ membership was over 8.8 million. I don’t know the percentage of 17-year-olds for in each organisation, but I would bet my mortgage that the number of 17-year-olds engaged in active war-time duties in 1942/43 was far greater in Nazi Germany than it was in Britain.

Of course that’s not even beginning to touch upon the number of children aged 16 and under that were in active service in Germany. You seem to be silent on this issue and wish to focus solely on the fact that 17-year-olds joined the Home Guard (but of course never saw any actual combat).

Regards,

André

[Cott Tiger]

Your material shows that German youths were receiving training in 1942 - British 17yr olds were receiving training AND serving in uniform and under King's Regulations as full servicemen in 1940, with this becoming COMPULSORY and 100% in 1942.

Phylo,


I have provided plenty of evidence to show that HJ youths/children were not only in military training in 1942 but where actively performing wartime duties and fulfilling military roles. You appear to be ignoring this evidence.

As stated above, I challenge your assumption that the Home Guard was regarded as “full military service” in 1940.

Regards,

André

[Cott Tiger]

Phylo,

Just to go back to an earlier point for a moment, that of the Boy Scouts being militaristic.

The website highlighted below is an interesting study about the Boy Scout movement and militarism. The author examines how the initial movement was indeed heavily militaristic in its initial conception and in it’s early formative years but that it did move away from this stance to evolve into a “non-military organisation"

Conclusion.
The Boy Scout scheme whilst it may have been born out of a concern for the Empire as well as a genuine desire to help young people, owes its success to its ability to have balanced the influences of the period and steered to more middle ground and hence to gain a wider influence. The critics surely played a major role in this. A shift in position towards that of a non-military organisation can be demonstrated by a simple comparison of one of the later editions of 'Scouting for Boys', with the earlier editions #57. Thus in conclusion ,Vane was justified in alerting both the public and members of the scout movement to the potential dangers of militarists steering the movement in the wrong direction. Through Vane's rebel organisation, change was effected to B-P's organisation from without, a change that was necessary to ensure the organisation's long tern survival. Yet the irony is that this process left Vane, who had caused the change, out in the cold.

Source: http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/sha/military.htm

The Boy Scouting movement away from militarism in the 20’s and 30’s is in stark contrast to the evolution of the Hitlerjugend which became more military-based as time went on.

Regards,

André

[phylo_roadking]

Males graduating from the Hitler Youth were expected to go straight into the German Armed Forces and they were explicitly trained and groomed for that eventuality. It was its primary aim and Hitler himself said as much.

Not necessarily. There's a more important quote on this...from 1938.

"This youth learns nothing but to think German and to act German. When these boys enter our organization at the age of ten, it is often the first time in their lives that they get to breathe and feel fresh air; then four years later they come from the Jungvolk into the Hitler Youth, and we keep them there for another four years, and then we definitely don't put them back into the hands of the originators of our old classes and status barriers; rather we take them straight into the Party or into the Labor Front, the SA, or the SS, the NSKK [motorized corps] and so on. And if they are there for another two years or a year and a half and still haven't become complete National Socialists, then they go into the Labor Service and are polished for another six or seven months, all with a symbol, the German spade. And any class consciousness or pride of status that may be left here and there is taken over by the Wehrmacht for further treatment for two years, and when they come back after two, three, or four years, we take them straight into the SA, SS, and so on again, so that they shall in no case suffer a relapse, and they will never be free again as long as they live."

As originally intended - they were NOT destined for Wehrmacht necessarily. Thats the END of a long process FIRST.

There are always going to be some that “slipped through the net” as it were. 82% is a pretty high number and that figure actually increased in the immediate pre-war period (late 1938/ early 1939) .

No, 82% was the highest percentage. Population demographics and a slight "baby bulge" mean that into the early war years, there were more members in numbers terms....but the percentage actually DROPPED again.

Just because some children managed to avoid membership (by hook or by crook) doesn’t in any way negate the fact that membership was compulsory and there were punishments for those that failed to comply

Nor does compulsory membership negate the fact that on the eve of war some 18% - thats nearly one in every five - of German boys WASN'T in the HJ despite the mandate being repeated.

There's another interesting fact - the membership numbers in prewar years.

1936 - the year the movement was made compulsory - 5,437,602
1938 -.......................................................- 7,031,226

NOW what was the membership total for 1937, the year AFTER membership was made compulsory?

1937 -.......................................................- 5,879,955

Compulsory membership didn't really work.

You continually ignore the fact that HJ children as young as twelve were performing full military duties (manning AA guns/searchlights and fighting on the front line in Berlin).

No I don't - what I'm saying is the BRITISH gave FULL military duties under full military discipline to their children FIRST.

ONCE you decide to mobilise children....you mobilise whatever age is fit to do whatever jobs are available. The AGE doesn't matter ONCE you decide to abrogate the principle that children shouldn't be involved in warfare.

I ‘m unconvinced on this point and need clarification. Certainly in the beginning (1940/1) the Home Guard was definitely not regarded as “full military service”. It was unpaid, largely made up of volunteers (supplemented by compulsory enrolment where required later) and was not subject to military codes of conduct. It wasn’t even under the full control of the British Army. Whether this changed as the war went on I’m unsure, can you provide clarification on this matter.

The first days of the Home Guard were somewhat haphazard, but was under FULL Army command as of 17th May 1940 and the passing of the Defence (Local Defence Volunteers) Regulations 1940. Unless you regard Edmund Ironsides as not an Army general...To begin with it had its own rank structure, but in November 1940 was entirely streamlined into regulation British Army ranks and organisation, but from the start was responsible upwards to Army area command. Kings' Regulations applied, but obviously ONLY when on duty.

17 year olds were, and far more of them in 1942 than in Germany in 1943.

What statistics do you have to back up this claim? At its height the Home Guard ranks numbered a little over 1.7 million. The last accurate figures for the HJ membership was over 8.8 million. I don’t know the percentage of 17-year-olds for in each organisation, but I would bet my mortgage that the number of 17-year-olds engaged in active war-time duties in 1942/43 was far greater in Nazi Germany than it was in Britain.

Actually - I was specifically referring to 12th SS-Pz Hitler Jugend; how many HJ members joined it in 1943? Against how many 17 year olds in uniform under the National Service Act in the UK?

Of course that’s not even beginning to touch upon the number of children aged 16 and under that were in active service in Germany. You seem to be silent on this issue and wish to focus solely on the fact that 17-year-olds joined the Home Guard (but of course never saw any actual combat).

The point is very simple - as I said above, once you abrogate the principle that children shouldn't be engaged in military service AT ALL - the age doesn't matter. What does matter is that the British did this first in May 1940.

MAY 1940 is quite important...

In August 1940, British air raids began against Berlin in retaliation for the German bombing of London. Hitler Youth boys had been functioning as air raid wardens and anti-aircraft (flak) gun assistants in Berlin and other cities since the outbreak of war, and now saw their first action.

America's entry into the war in December of 1941 resulted in a massive influx of air power into England. The first thousand bomber raid occurred in May 1942 against Cologne. In that same month, newly created Wehrertüchtigungslager or WELS (Defense Strengthening Camps) went into operation in Germany providing three weeks of mandatory war training for all boys aged 16 to 18 under the supervision of the Wehrmacht. They learned how to handle German infantry weapons including various pistols, machine-guns, hand grenades and Panzerfausts (German bazookas).

By the beginning of 1943, Hitler's armies were stretched to the limit, battling the combined forces of the Soviet Union, United States, England and other Allies. By this time, most able-bodied German men were in the armed services. As a result, starting on January 26, 1943, anti-aircraft batteries were officially manned solely by Hitler Youth boys.

At first they were stationed at flak guns near their homes, but as the overall situation deteriorated, they were transferred all over Germany. The younger boys were assigned to operate search lights and assist with communications, often riding their bicycles as dispatch riders. In October 1943, a search light battery received a direct bomb hit, killing the entire crew of boys, all aged 14 and under.

Following each bombing raid, Hitler Youths assisted in neighborhood cleanup and helped relocate bombed out civilians. They knocked on doors looking for unused rooms in undamaged houses or apartments. Occupants refusing to let in the new 'tenants' were reported to the local police and could likely expect a visit from Gestapo.

So in other words - German youths were in the civil defence organisations from the beginning of the war. But the first flakhelfern went into action in AUGUST 1940. And FULL HJ flak crews appeared in 1943, along with the 12th SS-Pz HJ....

In Britain the Home Guard were acting as shellflingers assisting RA AA crews since the first raids on Britain in July 1940 - including Volunteer P.D. Willeringhaus who was awarded a 'Mention in Despatches' for his brave conduct. He was only 16 at the time - and the first FULL Home Guard AA crews were formed in 1942.

[haen2]

There was indeed political indoctrination in the H.J. (that's why it was called the HITLER Jugend and not the German Scouts or so.)
Although at several occasions there were H.J. units who were guests of the Boy Scouts of America (before the war of course)
The pre-lude to the military actually came in the Wehrertuchtigungslagers (H.J. sportscamps) where the indoctrination was more intense, and 22 Cal shooting, as well as "Gelände übungen and endurance training was emphasized. (H.J.Schiessabzeigen and HJ Leistungsabzeigen). Also there was some kind of behind the scenes leadership selection that ended up on your "reportcard" in case you did sign up for the armed forces..
When i was through with it, I graduated with a Schiessabzeigen and a Leistungsabzeigen,(just plain bronze, and not silver) and through a comical series of misunderstandings I had been cast in the role of a Holländische Landesführer.
Upon leaving I was made an honoray ?? Kameradschaftsführer of the local H.J. Bann, which lead to more confusion when I reported for active duty, because I had not belonged to the H.J. before the Sportscamp.
Oh those pictures from my "Kinderjahren"
HN

[phylo_roadking]

Actually, can anyone point me to a full text of the 1942 National Serivce Act? I'm getting hints that although conscription was tied directly to one's 18th birthday by the 1939 Act...which wasn't changed....it's possible the 1942 (actually late December 1941) Act actually allowed 16 year olds to be mobilised too. Certainly the provision for compulsory recruitment for areas where the Home Guard was undermanned allowed 16 year olds....

[Matthias Fritz]

My original post was abouth waffen SS and what become of them at the last stage of 2WW but now all posts are abouth HJ and Home guard ( that hase realy nothing to do with waffen SS ), so please guys lets writh abouth waffen SS as this part of Feldgrau forum is for waffen SS and not HJ !
No one, exept two forum members who are real waffen SS veterans answer my questions and that is why i started that post and not do discuse HJ !

Matthias

[Cott Tiger]

Phylo,

Nobody has ever disputed that 17-year-old youths were allowed to volunteer for the Home Guard/LDV in 1940 and that they were later compulsory enrolled (I do dispute that this part-time, unpaid, largely volunteer organisation was regarded as “full military service” – it quite clearly was not).

The original contention was that the Boy Scout movement was basically no different from the Hitlerjugend. It was a comparison between two youth organisation and as I have clearly demonstrated the two had clear, distinguishing, and fundamental differences. These were mainly that the HJ was a paramilitary organisation of a political party and that it’s members conducted extensive wartime duties and served in front-line combat roles. This clearly wasn’t the case with the Boy Scout movement.

You have opened the debate up to include the British use of 17-year-olds in the Home Guard. That is a totally separate argument. By the end of the war the role of the Home Guard was probably much more similar to the role of the HJ than the Boy Scouts indeed was. For example the manning of AA equipment and coastal defences, patrolling for Parachute drops, trench digging etc. But the important distinction here is that whilst the Home Guard units may have had some 17-year-olds in their ranks (although of course the vast majority of it’s membership came from the 45+ age-group), it wasn’t a solely YOUTH organisation made up of 10-18 year-olds, AND it never saw front-line combat (unlike the HJ did).

Best regards,

André

PS: Just on a technical point, according to the British national archives the Home Guard didn’t actually come under direct military control until January 1941.

[Cott Tiger]

My original post was abouth waffen SS and what become of them at the last stage of 2WW but now all posts are abouth HJ and Home guard ( that hase realy nothing to do with waffen SS ), so please guys lets writh abouth waffen SS as this part of Feldgrau forum is for waffen SS and not HJ !
No one, exept two forum members who are real waffen SS veterans answer my questions and that is why i started that post and not do discuse HJ !

Matthias

Matthias,

I agree that the thread has diverged from the original intention, but it has been a lively and informative discussion and it would be shame to lose it. Perhaps it should be separated.

Regards,

André

[Cott Tiger]

I have a suggestion for you, google "Connors, Michael F. - Dealing in Hate and try and read it with an open mind".

Thanks for the tip Gerhard, I have read in full Connors Dealing in Hate. I was unimpressed to be honest, especially with his Holocaust denial.

Regards,

André