The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Rui Esteves » Sun May 11, 2008 8:35 am

Commissar D, the Evil wrote:
What else was the Flak 38 schwebelafette installation used for?


This installation was used on a variant of the Sd. Kfz. 251, the 251/17 Ausf. D w/2cm Schwebelafette, introduced in 1944.


The image posted by phylo_roadking, appears in the Concord's book #7057-Panzer in the Gunsights 2 - German AFVs and Artillery in the ETO 1944-45 in US Army Photos (2006), by Steven J. Zaloga. This photo and another one, are showed in page 26.


The vehicle, had the license plate: WH-1787043.

Zaloga doesn't know, if it is a field modification or a prototype and states that is probably, a vehicle from 20.Panzer Division, captured in Czechoslovakia. And the 20mm Flak 38 schwebelafette, was from a Sd.Kfz. 251/17.


(You can see, on page 28, various photos from destroyed Sd.Kfz. 251/17 captured by the 6th US Arm. Div. in Luxembourg, early February 1945 and another one, captured in the Saar by Gen. Patton's 3rd US Army. And also, a close-up of the 2cm Schwebelafette, without his shields).

You can see that, in Concord sample pages of that book:
http://www.concord-publications.com/7057/7057.htm

Rui Esteves
Last edited by Rui Esteves on Sun May 11, 2008 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

Postby Rui Esteves » Sun May 11, 2008 8:41 am

Jan-Hendrik wrote:What we have so far ....

234/1 , around 200 build :

PzAA / 1.SS LAH, IV/1944/1945, 5
PzAA / 2.SS DR, IV/1944, 13
PzAA / 9.SS HS, IV/1944, 4
PzAA / 12.SS HJ, IV/1944, 4
PzAA / PLD, IV/1944, 13
PzSpK / FGB, IV/1944, 6
PzAA / 2. PzD, IV/1944, 2
PzAA / 4. PzD, 29.Jan.1945, 7
PzAA / 9. PzD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 11. PzD, IV/1944, 11
PzAA / 25. PzD,
PzAA / 116. PzD, IV/1944, 10
PzBrig 150, 1944, 6 -> an LAH?
PzAA "Elbe" / PzD "Clausewitz", 1945, 1
??????PzAA / PzD "Clausewitz", 1945, 1+????????
PzSpKp "M" / "PzD "Müncheberg", März 1945, 3+


234/2 , 101 build :

PzAA / PLD II/1944, 25
PzAA / 1.SS LAH, II/1944, 16
PzAA/ 2. PzD, II/1944, 25 (noch 11 im Dez.1944)
PzAA / 20. PzD, III/1944, 16
KGr Putlos / PzD "Clausewitz", 1945, 1+
PzAA / 7. PzD, 2.1944, 6

???PzAA / 13. PzD, 1944, ??????????? laut Jentz
Rest (12?) an WaPrü und Schulen



234/3 , 88 build :

PzAA / PLD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 9. PzD, /IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 11. PzD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 116. PzD, III/1944, 2
PzAA / 1.SS LAH, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 2.SS DR, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 9.SS HS, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 12.SS HJ, IV/1944, 3


234/4 , 89 build :

PzSpKp 101 / FBD, 16.2.1945, 6
PzSpKp "S" / PzD "Schlesien" 21.2.1945, 3 -> PzAA 44 / PzD "Holstein" -> 18. PzGrenD
PzAA / PzD "Jüterbog" 21.2.1945, 3 -> PzAA / 16. PzD
PzAA "Elbe" / PzD "Clausewitz", April 1945, 2
PzSpKp "M" / PzD "Müncheberg", 29.3.1945, 4
PzAA / 25. PzD, 14.3.1945, 3
PzAA / 21. PzD, 1.4.1945, 3
Begl.Kp zbV, 1.4.1945, 3 (Tl KGr Speer sein (Begl.Verband OKW Zossen???))
PzAA "HG" / PzD "HG", 10.4.1945, 3
PzAA / 25. PzGrenD 25, 12.4.1945, 6
PzAA / 116. PzD, 15.4.1945, 6



You see , especially 234/3 and 234/4 there are still many vehicles where still nobody could trace down which unit received them !

Jan-Hendrik


There is no Sd.Kfz. 234/1 in the 20.Panzer Division. This unit, only had Sd.Kfz. 234/2 "Puma".
So Zaloga, may be wrong?

Rui Esteves
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Hans Weber » Mon May 12, 2008 7:09 am

Hello Ruy

20. PD had 3 x 234/3 they received in October 1944. You see them also on strength reports for November and December 1944 and in the Panzerlage 30.12.1944 by Gen.Qu, Gen.d.Kraftfahrwesens. When they surrendered at Pilsen in 1945, they at least had one left, plus this 234 with Schwebelafette. An exhaustive collection of photographs depicting the column going into captivity has been recently published in Panzerwrecks 4. The ID Zaloga has used in his publication is correct. Imho the Schwebelafette version it's a field conversion from a 234/3, one of their own, mounting a Schwebelafette, taken from a 251/17.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Rui Esteves » Mon May 12, 2008 12:02 pm

I have a die-cast Puma from IXO/Altaya, Turret number #125, License plate SS-1545960, theoretically from 11. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division "Nordland", in Narva, Estonia, 1944.

Image

There was any Sd.Kfz. 234/2 Puma in 11.SS-PzDiv?

If not, from which unit, it was?

Rui Esteves
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Hans Weber » Tue May 13, 2008 12:07 am

Hello Ruy

Nice model. Nordland didn't have any 234/2 I know of. It wasn't even a Panzer-Division. The only SS unit issued 234/2 was LAH (and 150th Pz. Brigade for that matter, not exactly a SS unit). Hubert Meyer says some were issued to Hitlerjugend, though this was not proven in any of the official records (Zuführungliste, Meldungen of the Division, Panzerlage, Waffenamt-Übersichten). There was a 234/2 lost at Bütgenbach in the sector of Hitlerjugend in December 1944, but it was from LAH. The digits on your model seem to be similar to the ones used in 2. PD, however, not correct neither. This unit repeated the middle (not the last like here) number on the mudguards. The middle number is the troop number. Having 25 cars, 12 troops with two cars each were formed, ranging from "111" to "1122". The 25th car was the one used by the CO.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Martin Block » Tue May 13, 2008 11:18 am

Hans is absolutely correct, the 11. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. NEVER had and Sd.Kfz. 234/2 in its inventory. Infact it never had any vehicles from the Sd.Kfz. 234 series at all. The only 8-wheeled armored cars ever issued to SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 11 were 6 Sd.Kfz. 231/232 in December 1943. The unit did not receive any replacements after that. This is confirmed by allocation records of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr., divisional status reports as well as other records.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Rui Esteves » Tue May 13, 2008 12:25 pm

Thanks.

During my researches on Sd.Kfz. 234/2, i found numerous doubtful Pumas, made from some model manufacturers, that make me think, that sometimes they bring some confusion.

For example, I saw a model of Puma, from IX.SS Panzer Division “Hohenstaufen”, turret number: Red 1111.
It seems, the famous Puma, captured by the British, with turret number 1111.

Image



But the Hohenstaufen, had 234/1 and 234/3, and no /2.


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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Hans Weber » Tue May 13, 2008 1:00 pm

Hello Ruy

This is the first car of 11th troop, 1st Company, 2. Pz Division as captured in Normandy.

Hohenstaufen didn't have any 234/1 and 234/3 at Arnhem. They were only issued 6 older 231/232 in 1943, of which some were lost by September 1944. They were issued 4 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3 in November 1944 and helped themselves to another 10 x 234/1 originally intended for 9. Panzer Division the same month.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Hans Weber » Sun May 18, 2008 6:27 am

Here is the new version of the

Allocation list of Sd.Kfz 234/1, 234/3 and 234/4

The following list is made from the allocation reports found at the BAMA at Freiburg under the signature number RH 10/349 and RH 10/350, and the files of OKH/Waffenamt, NARA T 78 Roll 169 - BAMA RH 8

The Sdkfz 234/1 and 234/3 were issued to troops starting in June 1944. At this time, the TO&E authorized a Stabskompanie to have 13 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3. A selected few Pz. Aufklärungsabteilungen were refitted according these guidelines. During the time from June till Octobre 1944, the monthly overview by Heeres-Waffenamt kept information on the older Skdfz 232 and 233, but didn’t differ the new variants of the type Sdkz. 234, except that the sheet on the Sdkfz 234 contained information on the Sdkfz 234/2, while the two other variants were included only in the numbers on the estimated production and the items accepted by the Waffenamt. So the information has to be gained by deduction and the in combination with the “Zuführungslisten” which contain data on the numbers delivered to Inspektion 6 (and thus the arsenals). As the stocks of Sdkfz 232 and 233 were at zero in June 1944 and none repaired this month, all the 2 cm and 7,5cm heavy armored cars isseud this month were of the new type.

1944

June

Waffenamt accpeted 62 new items, the highest entry ever, surpassing the expected 30 items.
Delivered to arsenals 60 new items, of which 7 x Sdkfz 234/2, the rest a mix of 234/1 and 234/3. 2 x 234/2 remained in the arsenals.

13 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to 116. Pz. Div. (unit full)
13 x 234/1 to 9. Pz. Div.
13 x 234/1 to 11. Pz. Div.
3 x 234/3 to 6. Pz. Div.
6 x 234/2 to 12. Pz.Div.

5./Pz.Aufkl.Lehr.Komp Krampnitz received one item. As this was the heavy Co of the Lehrtruppen Abteilung, most likely this was a new 234/3. With the same order a Sdkfz 234/2 was issued to Ersatzheer. It might have gone to the 4./Pz.Aufkl.Lehr.Komp. Krampnitz, as well.

July

Waffenamt accepted 32, still meeting the demanded production number of 30 items a month.
Delivered to arsenals were however only 13 new items (12 x 234/1 and 3, 1 x 234/2) and 2 repaired 232, which remained in stock. No 233 in stock. 1 234/2 was repaired, one new arrived, one 234/2 was issued to the Ersatzheer and might have ended up with 116. Pz.Div, thus in the arsenals at the end of then month 3 x 234/2 remained.

3 x 234/3 to 9. Pz.Div. (unit full)
3 x 234/3 to 11. Pz.Div (unit full)

August

Only 22 items were accepted by Waffenamt. The explication for not reaching the production goal of 35 was a shortage in “Differentialteile”.
31 new items were delivered to Insp. 6 (all new 234/1 and 234/3), 7 repaired items reached the arsenals, 3 x 233, of which two were reissued at once to the Ersatzheer – most probably ending up with 9. and 11. Pz. Div. - and 4 x 232, which were kept in stocks together with the two mentioned above and repaired in July. 3 x 234/2 in the arsenals.

3 x 234/1 to 6. Pz. Div (already having 3 x 234/3)
3 x 234/3, 4 x 234/1 to SS-Pz. Div. 2 “R”
3 x 234/3 to 8. Pz. Div.

September

The production goal of 35 was surpassed when 45 new items were accepted by Waffenamt. 41 of the 234/1 and 234/3 variant and 2 x 234/2 (new) were delivered. One of these Pumas was delivered to the Ersatzheer (not to 20. Pz. Div, correct this on my above Puma delivery list), stocks now at 4 x 234/2 at the end of the month. 3 x 233 were repaired and delivered and reissued, 2 to 14. Pz.Div., 1 to the Ersatzheer, thus one remaining in the arsenal. 4 x 232 were repaired and made a total of 10 x 232 in stocks, of which now 5 were issued to 14. Pz.Div and 5. Pz.Div, both units also received some le PSW. 5 x 232 thus remained in stocks.

9 x 234/1 to SS-Pz. Div. 2 “Reich” (unit full)
13 x 234/1 to 8. Pz. Div. (unit full)
10 x 234/1 to 6. Pz. Div. (unit full)
6 x 234/1 to FGB
3 x 234/3 to 20 Pz. Div. (in addition to 16 x 234/2)
4 x 232, 1 x 222, 2 x 223 to 5. Pz. Div.
1 x 232, 7 x 222 to 14. Pz. Div.

October

35 x 234/1 and one 234/3 were delivered to Insp. 6, 2 x 232 were repaired, of the 7 now available, 5 were issued to the Ersatzheer, 1 x 232 and 4 x 234/1 remained in the arsenals at the end of the month. 5 x 234/2 were repaired, of the 9 x 234/2 available, two were sent to the Ersatzheer and 7 remained in the arsenals as did 6 x 234/3 and 1 x 233. 15 x 222 and 10 x 223, all repaired, entered arsenals and except 1 x 222 all were reissued, in stock were 2 x 222 and 2 x 223.

3 x 234/3 to Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg (10 sPSW assigned, however only 3 delivered in Oct.)
3 x 234/1, 5 x 234/3 to SS-Pz. Div. “LAH” (the unit still had 8 x 234/2)
8 x 234/1 to Pz. Lehr Div. (the unit still had 4 x 234/2)
1 x 232, 13 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to Pz.Gren.Div. “Hermann Göring”
1 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3, 3 x 223, 6 x 222 to SS-Pz.Div. “HJ”
1 x 233 to Feld-Uffz.Schule
4 x 234/1, 2 x 234/3, 1 x 223, 2 x 222 to 20. Pz.Gren. Div
6 x 222 to 90. Pz.Gren.Div.
5 x 232, 2 x 234/2, 3 x 234/3 and 6 x 223 (only 3 noted down in Zuführungslisten as 221) were issued to the Ersatzheer

November

27 x 234/1 and 13 x 234/3 were delivered to Insp. 6, 4 x 232, 6 x 233, 1 x 222 and 2 x 223 were repaired and sent into arsenals. 4 x 232, 6 x 234/1, 4 x 234/2, 7 x 233, 9 x 234/3, 3 x 223 remained in the arsenals. The remaining 222 was sent back to WaA for repairs, stocks thus at 0.

2 x 234/1 to Panzer Lehr
2 x 234/1 to 2. Pz. Div.
1 x 232 to 21. Pz. Div.
4 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to 9. SS. Pz. Div. (unit ending refreshing with 13 PSW, light and heavy)
10 x 234/1, 2 x 234/3 to 9. Pz.Div. Possibly profiting from a confusion, the 10 x 234/1 actually landed in the hands of 9. SS-Pz. Div.
4 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3 to 116 Pz Div. (unit full with 16 s PSW)
3 x 234/1 to 12. SS-Pz.Div.”HJ” (unit full with 16 PSW, light and heavy)
1 x 223, 2 x 222 to 25. Pz.Gren.Div.
3 x 234/2, 3 x 234/3 to Pz. Brigade 150

December

Production of 234/3 was stopped. 11 x 234/1, 17 x 234/3 and 25 x 234/4 were delivered to Insp. 6. 2 x 232 and 1 x 233, 6 x 222 and 3 x 223 were repaired and delivered to arsenals. Types available for distribution thus 17 x 234/1, 6 x 232 (all issued), 4 x 234/2, 26 x 234/3, 8 x 233 (all issued), 6 x 222, 6 x 223 (all issued). The old material was issued to 21. Panzer, Grossdeutschland and the Ersatzheer. At the end of the month remaining stocks were: 2 x 234/1, 1 x 234/2, 3 x 234/3, 25 x 234/4, 2 x 222.

2 x 222, 3 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to SS-Pz.Div “Frundsberg”
4 x 234/1 to Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg (to the 3 already on strength, see above)
3 x 234/3 to 4.SS Pol.Pz.Gren.Div
3 x 234/3 to Pz. AA Lehr-Kp (this unit together with what was then the Aufklärungs-Lehr-Abteilung - not to be confounded with ALA 130 - became part of Radfahr-Jäger-Brigade 10).
1 x 223 to OB HGr B
1 x 232, 2 x 234/3, 3 x 223 to the Ersatzheer
1 x 234/3 to Feldherrenhalle
1 x 234/3 to 1. Pz. Div.
2 x 234/3 to 13. Pz.Div.
1 x 234/3 to 23. Pz. Div
3 x 234/3 to 24. Pz. Div.
1 x 222, 2 x 223 to 5. Pz. Div.
8 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3 to 1./190. Pz.Gren.Div (became part of AA Hirschberg, Pz. Brigade 103)
4 x 232, 2 x 233 to Grossdeutschland
3 x 234/2 to 7. Pz.Div (the last Pumas issued directly to a frontline unit)
3 x 234/3 to 17.SS.Pz.Gren Div.
6 x 233, 1 x 232 to 21. Pz.Div.

1945

January

37 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/4 were entering arsenals.7 x 222, 6 x 223, 1 x 232, 3 x 234/3 and 1 x 233 were repaired. It’s interesting to note that the ration between the variants often changes drastically between months. In summer, a big portion of 234/3 were produced early, leading to shortages of the 234/1 needed in bigger numbers and big stocks of 234/3. In February, only 234/4 would be delivered, while in March the deliveries would be split almost evenly between the two only variants left in production.

39 x 234/1, 1 x 232, 1 x 234/2, 6 x 234/3, 1 x 233, 28 x 234/4, 9 x 222 and 6 x 223 were in arsenals. This is the first month 234/4 were issued, although arsenals received them already in December. 7 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3, 7 x 234/4, 3 x 222 and 2 x 223 remained in stock at the end of it.

2 x 234/2, 7 x 234/4 to Brandenburg (4 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3 already on strength, see above, unit thus complete, unit also wrote a test report on the of 234/4)
5 x 234/4 to 10. Pz.Gren.Div.
3 x 234/1 to Pz. AA Lehr-Kp (3 x 234/3 already on strength, see above)
2 x 234/3 to Feldherrenhalle (now having 3 x 234/3)
2 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3, 5 x 222 to Pz. AA “München” (the Zuführungsliste erroneously lists 7 le PSW, for Pz.Jagd-Brigade 104))
8 x 234/1, 7 x 234/3 to 24. Pz. Div. (complete type 45 Stabskompanie of a Aufklärungsabteilung, only one such in the Heer)
1 x 232, 6 x 234/1, 1 x 233, 1 x 234/2 to Ersatzheer
5 x 234/1, 1 x 222, 4 x 223 (or 221) to Polizei Schule Wien (this unit also had an assortment of older foreign PSWs, it’s not sure what happened here, a handwritten note only has 7 PSW leaving arsenals Feb. 10th, the unit fought and was destroyed in and around Vienna).
4 x 234/1 to SS-Pz.Div. “Totenkopf”
1 x 234/1, 2 x 234/3, to 1./ Pz. AA 190 (unit now at 9 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3)
1 x 234/1, 6 x 234/4 to 4 Pz. Div

February

26 x 234/4 delivered. 5 x 222 and 2 x 223 repaired and delivered.
Available 7 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3, 33 x 234/4, 6 x 222 and 5 x 223.
Remaining in stocks: 11 x 234/4, 6 x 222, 4 x 223

6 x 234/4 to FBD (for some reason listed as not being part of the Heer).
5 x 234/1, 3 x 234/4 to Pz. (Gren) Div. Kurmark (Neuaufstellung)
2 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3 to 25 Pz.Gren.Div (Auffrischung, the Zuführungsliste has 3 more cars, if indeed delivered, they were le PSW, as stocks of all variants other than 234/4 were now empty).
1 x 222 to KG Kluge
4 x 234/1 to FBD (Auffrischung)
3 x 234/4 to Pz.Div.HG (Stelle ausserhalb des Heeres, Luftwaffe)
3 x 234/4 to Pz.Div. Jüterborg (Neuaufstellung)
3 x 234/4 to Pz. Div. Schlesien (Neuaufstellung)

March

The material of the Heereswaffenamt ends with February. 35 sPSW were delivered to Insp 6, 2 sPSW and 16 le PSW were repaired and delivered. It’s not possible to say which variants were produced in what numbers, but remarks on the Zuführungsliste identify at least some deliveries to units.

4 x 234/1, 3 x 234/4 to 25. Pz.Div.
4 x 234/1, 4 x 234/4 to Pz. Div. Müncheberg
5 PSW to Feldherrenhalle, maybe 3 x 234/1 and 2 x 234/4 (new Pz.Korps Feldherrenhalle)

7 x PSW to 13. Pz. Div, maybe 4 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/4 (new Pz. Korps Feldherrenhalle)
3 x PSW toPz. Div. HG , maybe 234/4
4 x PSW to 8. Pz. Div, maybe 234/4
3 x 234/1, 3 x 234/4 to Begl.Kp.z.b.V (Begleitkompanie I, KG Moews)
8 x 222, 4 x 223 to A.A. 115

If the above is correct, then at least 18 x 234/1 had to be produced, leaving 17 x 234/4. Stocks would go down to 8 sPSW and 12 le PSW at the end of the month

April
Nothing on production, it’s possible that none were delivered.

3 x PSW to Pz. Div. HG (probably all sPSW)
6 x PSW to 25 Pz. Gren. Div (probably 2 x sPSW and 4 x le PSW)
6 x 234/4 to 116 Pz. Div. Probably ending up with Pz. AA. Döring (possibly 2 sPSW and 4 le PSW, according to an order dated April 7th to raise a KG from 116. Pz. Div.)

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Tom Houlihan » Sun May 18, 2008 6:57 am

Hern Hans und Martin, vielen Danke!

Whether it is due to publishers marketing photo books of "sexy" vehicles, or model and companies trying to impress us, there are several areas of weapons and vehicles where our knowledge and understanding is quite skewed. The 234 series is a good example of this.

I'd like to publicly add my thanks to you to for clearing up any mysteries about the numbers and allocations of the 234 series vehicles. Few people would know where to find this information, let alone comprehend it well enough to explain it to all of us tyros!

So, thanks again, thanks for squaring us all away!
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Martin Block » Sun May 18, 2008 3:50 pm

Well done again Hans :up:

Hope you don't mind me making a few comments.

What immediately again confused me was that you apparently did not use shipment dates for your monthly lists of vehicles issued to units but preferred the dates the allocations were made. You know there are differences up to one month between those dates. Your list may be interpreted as if units actually received Sd.Kfz. 234/1 and 234/3 already in June 1944 which IMHO was not the case. This applies also to other months. I find it confusing that you for instance list some vehicles for Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg delivered in Oct. while actually the shipment took place on 2.11.1944. Same applies to 20. Pz.Gren.Div. which you list in October while actually the shipments took place in late Oct. and early Nov.? That is in contrast to the 'usual' standard by most authors of giving dates of shipment as issue dates and I think will surely confuse others too when comparing your dates with published literature.

I didn't have the time to cross-check everything with my references yet. This will be a major undertaking as you surely know best. So I hope it's O.K. if I go step by step during the following days and I'll start with June to August 1944:

June 1944
Dates reflect the day the actual shipment took place from a Heereszeugamt as given in the files of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. in chronological order.
In addition to that the date of allocation (zugewiesen am) by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. is given in [ ]. That should be the date Hans has used if I understood it correctly. As one can see an allocation (Zuweisung) in some cases could be made up to almost a month before the actual shipment (Abtransport tatsächlich) took place.
2.6.1944: 1 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 1. SS-Pz.Div. [allocated on 23.5.1944] = 1x 234/2 (i.e. the 16th and last one)
7.6.1944: 1 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 12. Pz.Div. [allocated on 30.5.1944] = 1x 232
9.6.1944: 12 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 20. Pz.Div. [allocated on 31.5.1944] = 12x 234/2
9.6.1944: 1 Pz.Sp.Wg. to SS-Ersatzheer [allocated on 23.5.1944] = 1x 234/2 (Hans Weber)
29.6.1944: 4 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 20. Pz.Div. [allocated on 19.6.1944] = 4x 234/2
Although allocations (Zuweisungen) were made as can be seen below, apparently no actual shipments (Abtransport tatsächlich) of any Sd.Kfz. 234/1 or 234/3 took place during this month.

Juli 1944
4.7.1944: 3 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 6. Pz.Div. [3 allocated on 29.6.1944] = 3x 234/3 (Hans Weber)
4.7.1944: 1 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 5./Pz.Aufkl.Lehr-Kp. Krampnitz [allocated on 23.6.1944] = 1x 234/3 (Hans Weber)
13.7.1944: 16 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 9. Pz.Div. [5 allocated on 19.6., 8 on 21.6., 3 on 30.6.1944] = 13x 234/1 + 3x 234/3
13.7.1944: 16 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 116. Pz.Div. [13 allocated on 19.6., 3 on 27.6.1944] = 13x 234/1 + 3x 234/3
22.7.1944: 1 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 'Ersatzheer' [allocated on 23.6.1944] = 1x 234/2 (Hans Weber: possibly to 4./Pz.A.LA. Krampnitz)
22.7.1944: 1 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 116. Pz.Div. [originally allocated to 'Ersatzheer' on 4.7.1944] = 1x 234/2 (Hans Weber)
27.7.1944: 16 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 11. Pz.Div. [13 allocated on 25.6., 3 on 30.6.1944] = 13x 234/1 + 3x 234/3

August 1944
13.8.1944: 1 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 9. Pz.Div. [originally allocated to 'Ersatzheer' on 27.7.1944] = 1x 233 (Hans Weber)
15.8.1944: 3 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 2. SS-Pz.Div. [allocated on 5.8.1944] = 3x 234/3
21.8.1944: 3 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 6. Pz.Div. [allocated on 5.8.1944] = 3x 234/1 (Hans Weber)
27.8.1944: 4 Pz.Sp.Wg. to 2. SS-Pz.Div. [allocated on 17.8.1944] = 4x 234/1

Vehicle identifications marked as (Hans Weber) I am unable to confirm from my available sources so far.

Hans, I do absolutely not understand your last entry for June 1944. The only shipments of s.Pz.Sp.Wg. to Pz.A.A. 12 of the 12. Pz.Div. I can find in the records of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. are 3 Sd.Kfz. 232 shipped on 6.5.1944 and 1 Sd.Kfz. 232 shipped on 7.6.1944.
6x 234/2 shipped in June surely is a typo, isn't it??? All available later 'Kriegsgliederungen' of Pz.A.A. 12 until February 1945 only show 2cm weapons with the Stabskp. and the last report from March 1945 explicitly lists just Sd.Kfz. 222, 223 and 232.

To be continued ...

Martin Block
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Hans Weber » Sun May 18, 2008 11:39 pm

Hello Martin

Thanks for the comments.

It's ok to go month by month, so I can point out the sources and thoughts behind the allocation marked "Hans Weber" :wink: I will try to comment on this later, kind of busy today.

A quick reply to two issues:

- As the title implies this is an alllocation list with no shipment and arrival dates. The allocation date is what takes precedence in the OKH Waffenamt files and as I had to synchronize both the "Übersichten" by Heereswaffenamt and the "Zuführungsliste" it came natural to me to do this by the date that links both and using the monthly overviews of both sources, even if some deliveries to units were executed the next month. I did this in an effort not to burden the complex material even more. The list should be a tool to get the production numbers and allocation numbers of the individual variants down. With it, it should then be easier to look at the individual deliveries for freaks like you and me that also want to know when the units received it, as the dates are in most cases noted down in the Zuführungslisten. Just as you started to do :D . I wasn't aware of any standard demanding arrival dates here, as I only can think of a handful of published authors diging out this sort of information anyway. I'm also not aware of anybody linking both these sources before as I did. We have Hahn focusing on the Waffenamt material and then the Insp.d.Pz.Trp guys just looking at the Zuführungslisten (something which can lead to false conclusions, remember the above PLD example on the 234/2).

- The 20. Pz.Div is my bad. My earlier list on the Puma deliveries is correct with the 4 items. What happened is that I just added the Pumas for completeness sake on the 234/1 and 234/4 list in a hurry without double checking. I also noticed that HG allocation contains a 1 x 232, that should be a 234/1 and I fear that some more of this will crop up and to iron them out it's one of the reasons that I don't keep the stuff on my harddisk.

Cheers
Hans

-
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Hans Weber » Mon May 19, 2008 10:13 am

Hello Martin

Now to the allocation you added my name for lack of sources. If you permit I will go by the system I have chosen as explained this morning.

The 234/2 to the Ersatzheer SS. The allocation is marked as such in the Zuführungsliste May 1944 and confirmed by the monthly overview OKH Waffenamt, Blatt G 374 III dated 1.6.1944: 29 Abgänge to In 6 were noted down, divided into 12 to units refreshing and 17 to units outside the Heer "Stelle ausserhalb des Heeres (in this case the Waffen SS, for the Luftwaffe and foreign countries there is another method to find out, I will explain later). As I also already have stated that after having looked at all the relevant sheets here the conclusion that only the 234/2 are actually treated in these lists can be not be seriously questioned. Example: The sheet dated 1.9.44 containing information on all the 234 series does so for the entry "Abnahme WaA" , it doesn't for the entry Zugang where we have a 0, the month before a 1, in June a 7 etc. Compare this to the fact that for May we have 19 on the Waffenamt sheet G 374 III (the same number as on the Zuführungsliste May 1944 under the entry "geliefert"), it becomes clear without a shadow of a doubt that you get the number of 234/1 and 234/3 delivered to In 6 by starting with the number "geliefert" on the Zuführungsliste and then deducting the number under "Zugang Neufertigung" on the "Übersicht". For example May its 19-19 = 0 (only 234/2 delivered), in case of June it's 60-7 = 53 (type 234/1 and 234/3, 7 beeing the number of 234/2). I can add that in the month of June 62 cars were accepted by Waffenamt, but this number is almost never identical to the number of items transported further along into the arsenals (60 in this case as I already said). Also these dates do not show when these vehicles were produced by the manufacturer, but only when they were handed over for inspection to enter the military. Your observation that the actual transports were leaving in July is correct, but that was not relevant for the Waffenamt. Once allocated they didn't bother anymore. I know from other sources that the arsenals had to report their stocks on an almost daily basis, this reports are at the reason why the Zuführungslisten have entries on the date the shipments were actually made,unfortunately, this material has been lost afaik. As to the phenomen you pointed out - no new cars leaving HZA in June - you have to keep in mind that in June 62 cars were processed through Waffenamt (there was an mandatory test drive for instance) whereas in May it was only 13 and in July 32. Not only was new material for the first time controlled by them, they also had more than in any other month before and after. Resulting delays were the reason that also the allocations only started in the last decade of June.

For the other allocations of June we seem to agree.

I have to leave for the evening, will tackle the other months soon.

Cheers
Hans
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Hans Weber » Tue May 20, 2008 12:08 pm

Martin

Still June allocations:

6. Pz. Div: 234/3. The unit received its full quota of 16 sPSW during the next months. I think the 3 x 234/3 were allocated either this month or in August 1944. The allocation in September were 10 x 234/1. There were no 232 and/or 233 issued this month (Übersichten Juni 1944).
5. Pz. Aufkl. Lehr Kp. 234/3. This was the schwere Kompanie of the the Lehrtruppen der Panzertruppenschule Krampnitz, whereas the 4. Kompanie was the Pz.Aufklärungskompanie. An allocation of a heavy armored car to this schwerer Kompanie instead to the Pz.Aufklärungs-Kompanie is interpreted by me as concerning a vehicle with a 7,5cm calibre. No 233 were allocated this month. The Übersicht mentions one type 234/2 allocated to the Ersatzheer, the Zuführungsliste repeats such an allocation. I suggested the 4./Pz.A.Kp d.Pz.Trp.Schule Kr. also on the basis of a 234/2 marked as a 4th Co vehicle (which is unusual to the standard them being either part of the 1. Kompanie or Stabskompanie in frontline units).

July

According to "Übersicht Juli 1944", a single 234/2 was allocated to the Ersatzheer. The Zuführungsliste mentions only one attribution to the Ersatzheer. Thus it must be this 234/2. I repeat that it's the only allocation to the Ersatz for July, although the Zuführungsliste August has two more allocations to the Ersatzheer dated 27. and 30 July (see below).The handwritten remark "116 Pz. Div" next to this allocation is known to you. T

I migth add here that the le PSW allocated to 10. Pz.Gren Div in July are 14 x 222 and 6 x 223, the unit is considered as being in "Auffrischung". Also refreshing were 23. Pz. Div and 17. Pz.Div, the first getting 6 x 223 and the second 4 x 223. There was a newly raised Aufklärungsabteilung for 19 Pz. Div. getting 12 x 222 and 7 x 223. Gen.d.Pz.Trp. West got 1 x 223 and the new Pz. AA 25 got 12 x 222 and 6 x 223 (it would get its last 223 in August).

August

Although marked on the Zuführungsliste August as allocated in July, both the Zuführung and the Übersicht treat the allocation of two sPSWs to the Ersatzheer on their August lists. I suppose that they were allocated in July, but this was announced as "Nachmeldung" and treated by both offices under the August material. Note that this was not so in the above case with Pz. AA 25, were the allocations were correctly noted down by OKH Waffenamt as happening in July, but treated in the August list in the Zuführung set, although with the correct date 31th July (You see, stuff like this is driving me nuts, I just can't bother here with another set of dates on shipments from HZA as probably most of the readers will have enough problems with catching up already).The only two sPSW allocated in the August "Übersicht" are two repaired 233. In the Zuführungsliste, the entry Ersatzheer has the added remark 9. Pz and 11. Pz. They are the only entries for the Ersatzheer in August.

Regarding 6. Pz. I refer to the above, June 1944.

We seem to agree on "Das Reich".

Cheers
Hans
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Postby Martin Block » Sat May 24, 2008 6:52 am

Hello Hans,

I'm very sorry for the delay in responding, but circumstances in real life unfortunately didn' leave much room for the fun part during the past week :(.

Anyway, I think it is high time to congratulate you to your absolutely fine piece of research!!! I went through a lot of my files during the past few nights and although lots of divisional status reports are missing from the final months of the war and it is very hard to establish on hand figures for Pz.Späh-Wagen due to losses suffered and rather unspecific reports I think that the essence of your work is as close to the truth as it possibly can be. The may be some small changes necessary in the future when new relevant documents surface, but IMHO in general your conclusions are not far from the mark. Therefore I will discontinue going month by month because a) I don't think it is necessary and b) it's a lot of work and I currently don't have the time anymore.

So once again I can only say: GREAT JOB :up: :up: :up:


P.S.: There is only one unit were I have to disagree with you, and that is the final shipment of 7 Pz.Späh-Wg. to the 4. Pz.Div.:

a) According to the 'gep.Kfz.-Lage v. 2.2.1945' attached to the 'Erfahrungsbericht über die Auffrischung der 4. Pz.Div.' the division had available:
4 Sd.Kfz. 222
4 Sd.Kfz. 223
3 Sd.Kfz. 232
6 Sd.Kfz. 233 (they are continuously reported since they arrived in Sep 1943, looks none was lost since then)
In addition to that 7 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 were reported as 'in Zuführung'
An additional remark to that report states: "... 7) Die unter 'Pz.Sp.Wg.' als in Zuführung gemeldeten 7 Sp.Wg. 234/1 befinden sich z.Zt. in Danzig. Zuführung zur Division ist beantragt."

b) A monthly report by the Oberquartiermeister of H.Gr. Weichsel prepared on 9.3.1945 states that during February 1945 a. o. the Pz.K.Zug Nr. 2009 loaded with 7 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 for 4. Pz.Div. had arrived in the sector of H.Gr. Weichsel.

c) The divisional 'Kriegsgliederung (Ist)' of 4. Pz.Div. dated 1.3.1945 shows symbols for 17 - 2cm Kwk and 5 - 7,5cm Kwk L/24 in the 1./Pz.A.A. 4. That is an increase of 10 - 2cm weapons and a decrease of 1 - 7,5cm weapon against the previous OoBs.

IMHO from these documents it is pretty save to say that the 4. Pz.Div. actually received the 7 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 that were reported as 'in Zuführung'. I'm not sure if one can perhaps already attribute the 3 surplus 2cm weapons to the Pz.A.A. München (Sd.Kfz. 234/1 and 222). At that time it was just attached to the division, officiall incorporation was ordered only later on 11.3.1945. Otherwise some more 2cm gun armed Pz.Späh-Wg. must have come from a delivery intended for another unit?

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