I have heard abouth brave and some times even quit sensles fighthing against alais in Normandy by members of Hitler Jugend SS divizion and specially HJ SS Panzer Divz ! Canyou tell me a litle more abouth that baby divizion as they have also be cold by the alais !? I also woud like to see the emblem of HJ SS Panzer Divz !
I was truly amaizd when i was waching the documentary on the Hisory chanel abouth feroses HJ fighting abilitis ageinst alais, specialy kanadainas !
Hitler Yugend SS panzer divizion
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Matthias Fritz
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Here you have som information about 12.SS-Panzerdivision "Hitler-Jugend"
:)
:)
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Matthias Fritz
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Alais vets blaims the SS HJ divizion for crimes in Normandy
I have wotchd the documentary aboth beattles in Normandy and the alais vets testimonys!
Some of them have sad that HJ or baby soldiers as they yust to col them, comit most of the crimes ( in the Waffen SS ) during the battles in France !
But the most interesting part is, that they dont menson, how the alais have complitly distroyd the SS HJ divizion and that only a few guys stay alive ! So I dont quit understand who kils who and who were atcualy wictims ? The HJ members were braind woshed and so its quit normal that they have faight hard and that they didnt stend back ! The awerige age of the SS HJ divizion was 18 years, a lot of them was even yunger, so they didnt quit understand the mininga of life and that they can be kiled ! They were the real wictims of the 2.ww !
Some of them have sad that HJ or baby soldiers as they yust to col them, comit most of the crimes ( in the Waffen SS ) during the battles in France !
But the most interesting part is, that they dont menson, how the alais have complitly distroyd the SS HJ divizion and that only a few guys stay alive ! So I dont quit understand who kils who and who were atcualy wictims ? The HJ members were braind woshed and so its quit normal that they have faight hard and that they didnt stend back ! The awerige age of the SS HJ divizion was 18 years, a lot of them was even yunger, so they didnt quit understand the mininga of life and that they can be kiled ! They were the real wictims of the 2.ww !
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Christoph Awender
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Average age of HJ troopers was 18.5 to 19 + years. Some started younger when they first joined div in '43.
Atrocities in Normandy were spread rather evenly across national bounderies despite claims to the countrary. This has become well known since allied soldiers have spoken up since the war and admitted to some rather chilling practices.
HJ were no more victims than any other soldiers. young men are the traditional "victims" in war. On both sides. By '45 the allies were using 18 year old conscripts as cannon fodder too.
The HJ were chastised if I'm understanding your post correctly for not surrendering? Why would they? Surrending in battle is a chancy business and who wants to be a prisoner of their enemy? Good soldiers can be captured but aren't likely to give up without a fight.
cheers
Reb
Atrocities in Normandy were spread rather evenly across national bounderies despite claims to the countrary. This has become well known since allied soldiers have spoken up since the war and admitted to some rather chilling practices.
HJ were no more victims than any other soldiers. young men are the traditional "victims" in war. On both sides. By '45 the allies were using 18 year old conscripts as cannon fodder too.
The HJ were chastised if I'm understanding your post correctly for not surrendering? Why would they? Surrending in battle is a chancy business and who wants to be a prisoner of their enemy? Good soldiers can be captured but aren't likely to give up without a fight.
cheers
Reb
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Matthias Fritz
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They didnt surender !
I sad that HJ SS members simply didnt surender dispite the fact, that they will be kild ! In some action in Normandy, ( i dont remember the town ) only for HJ SS members stayd alive !
I dont unerstand if they were so brawe or stupid, but tha fact is, that they were fighters and feard by alais !
I dont unerstand if they were so brawe or stupid, but tha fact is, that they were fighters and feard by alais !
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Christoph Awender
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Re: They didnt surender !
HelloMatthias Fritz wrote:I sad that HJ SS members simply didnt surender dispite the fact, that they will be kild ! In some action in Normandy, ( i dont remember the town ) only for HJ SS members stayd alive !
I dont unerstand if they were so brawe or stupid, but tha fact is, that they were fighters and feard by alais !
Where from do you have the information that they did not surrender? Do you have any source you can give us for your above stated oppinion?
\Christoph
I presume Mattias that you are referring to Falais where a company or less of HJ made a determined stand and were pretty much wiped out. Apparently a half dozen or so of those guys were actually taken prisoner.
The alternative I can think of would be the final storming of Carpriquet Airport outside Caen which was an ugly example of attackers enraged by heavy losses taking it out on the few surviving enemy when they finally got in.
It's best not to use generalities in these cases since HJ was an organization of roughly 20,000 men fighting in a wide area against various opponents over a period of several months.
cheers
reb
The alternative I can think of would be the final storming of Carpriquet Airport outside Caen which was an ugly example of attackers enraged by heavy losses taking it out on the few surviving enemy when they finally got in.
It's best not to use generalities in these cases since HJ was an organization of roughly 20,000 men fighting in a wide area against various opponents over a period of several months.
cheers
reb
Hi Reb,Reb wrote:I presume Mattias that you are referring to Falais where a company or less of HJ made a determined stand and were pretty much wiped out. Apparently a half dozen or so of those guys were actually taken prisoner.
The notion that HJ did not surrender is utter bunk. For the period 8-23 August II Canadian Corps reported the capture of 206 Hitler Jugend, for the period 11-30 August the US 90th ID reported the capture of 199, and for the period 21-30 August the US XIX Corps reported a further 23. So 428 by those units alone, probably close to 5 percent of the total caught in the pocket, and about 25 percent of the roughly 1,600 reported MIA by the division for August.
Rich
H. Meyer reports several thousand missing (of top of head - book at home) which presumes many prisoners. Plenty of photo and archival evidence as well.
that's why I always warn against generalities. The topic is to big for that.
The last stand at Falais was conducted by less than a company - roughly fifty men of whom 2 were chosen by lot to exfiltrate and 6 were captured and that is the closest thing I can recall to a "last stand."
Much of this stuff comes from anecdotal evidence from men whose view of the battlefield was limited to the 100 meters or so that one can actually see in that environment. When telling of our war experiences we should be required to predicate our statements with "from my perspective!" (I've talked about old battles with comrades who remember them quite differently than I and it wasn't so very long ago)
A classic example is the Ardennes - how many times have we read that "After Malmedy no SS prisoners were taken alive!" Really? I imagine some did get shot but thousands were in fact taken prisoner!
I'm not denying that it can be hard to surrender - and dangerous. The same 90th Div you noted in your example shot up a column of German prisoners under escort as they were first moving inland in Normandy. Self preservation, panic and poor visibility make surrending a dicy operation. But non the less - it happens regularly.
Alex McKee (Caen: Anvil of Victory) has the best analysis of atrocities in Normandy for my money and it always comes down to getting past the first few minutes alive.
One thing that's often forgotten is just how large a division is - larger than many towns with all the attendent services. Its amusing to note that one of the critical paths toward being perceived as a miltary power is the "simple" ability to move troops in any significant number from point A to point B.
cheers
Reb
H. Meyer reports several thousand missing (of top of head - book at home) which presumes many prisoners. Plenty of photo and archival evidence as well.
that's why I always warn against generalities. The topic is to big for that.
The last stand at Falais was conducted by less than a company - roughly fifty men of whom 2 were chosen by lot to exfiltrate and 6 were captured and that is the closest thing I can recall to a "last stand."
Much of this stuff comes from anecdotal evidence from men whose view of the battlefield was limited to the 100 meters or so that one can actually see in that environment. When telling of our war experiences we should be required to predicate our statements with "from my perspective!" (I've talked about old battles with comrades who remember them quite differently than I and it wasn't so very long ago)
A classic example is the Ardennes - how many times have we read that "After Malmedy no SS prisoners were taken alive!" Really? I imagine some did get shot but thousands were in fact taken prisoner!
I'm not denying that it can be hard to surrender - and dangerous. The same 90th Div you noted in your example shot up a column of German prisoners under escort as they were first moving inland in Normandy. Self preservation, panic and poor visibility make surrending a dicy operation. But non the less - it happens regularly.
Alex McKee (Caen: Anvil of Victory) has the best analysis of atrocities in Normandy for my money and it always comes down to getting past the first few minutes alive.
One thing that's often forgotten is just how large a division is - larger than many towns with all the attendent services. Its amusing to note that one of the critical paths toward being perceived as a miltary power is the "simple" ability to move troops in any significant number from point A to point B.
cheers
Reb
The total actually reported up to 31 August was 3,010, of which at least 898 were in June (period 6-27 June) and 505 were in July. Interestingly enough, there is also a report for 15-22 August that gives 655 MIA. That is roughly comparable to the report of 146 by the 90th ID for 11-20 August and the II Canadian Corps report for 8-23 August of 206. That would indicate that in the period in question well over half those missing were captured.Reb wrote:Rich
H. Meyer reports several thousand missing (of top of head - book at home) which presumes many prisoners. Plenty of photo and archival evidence as well.
Yup.that's why I always warn against generalities. The topic is to big for that.
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Christoph Awender
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That is why I am asking certain people for sources about such myths. Usually they come up with nothing. If someone is really interested in the facts it is possible to get the original reports from both sides and make a picture from the pure facts.
I dare to say that reading original material and analising the combat situation especially for Normandy (which seems to be the only battle for the english speaking world and many people here) prrof most myths wrong.
In this example you will see that allied formations captured HJ Division members as frequent as from other opposing formations.
\Christoph
I dare to say that reading original material and analising the combat situation especially for Normandy (which seems to be the only battle for the english speaking world and many people here) prrof most myths wrong.
In this example you will see that allied formations captured HJ Division members as frequent as from other opposing formations.
\Christoph
Christoph
the reason Normandy is of such interest to me (as an English speaker) has much to do with language. Up until the last ten or fifteen years a great deal of what was available in English was utter claptrap or self serving memoirs. Detail was missing.
The explosion in useful translations and "revisionist" research regarding this period has certainly peaked my interest in the campaign.
Another reason is that it involved some very interesting armoured warfare from which many conclusions have subsequently been drawn:
a) Nato used German tactics in Good wood for study
b) Israeli Defense Forces studied Epson and Hill 112
The German ability to defend against superior forces was of interest to countries who asumed they would be fighting against superior numbers.
The allied breakout and pursuit has a concomittant interest for similar reasons.
Finally - the German Whermact was in what one might call the "next to last" stage in terms of troops, organizations, equipment etc and was mature in those things as well as doctrine. (last stage being Volksgrenadiers etc in my example)
Frankly, I'm surprised sometimes at my own interest in the campaign after spending years freezing (figuratively!) on the East Front and boiling in the wastes of North Afrika.
cheers
reb
the reason Normandy is of such interest to me (as an English speaker) has much to do with language. Up until the last ten or fifteen years a great deal of what was available in English was utter claptrap or self serving memoirs. Detail was missing.
The explosion in useful translations and "revisionist" research regarding this period has certainly peaked my interest in the campaign.
Another reason is that it involved some very interesting armoured warfare from which many conclusions have subsequently been drawn:
a) Nato used German tactics in Good wood for study
b) Israeli Defense Forces studied Epson and Hill 112
The German ability to defend against superior forces was of interest to countries who asumed they would be fighting against superior numbers.
The allied breakout and pursuit has a concomittant interest for similar reasons.
Finally - the German Whermact was in what one might call the "next to last" stage in terms of troops, organizations, equipment etc and was mature in those things as well as doctrine. (last stage being Volksgrenadiers etc in my example)
Frankly, I'm surprised sometimes at my own interest in the campaign after spending years freezing (figuratively!) on the East Front and boiling in the wastes of North Afrika.
cheers
reb