Who knows what would have happened if the KMS Peter Strasser was also completed along with the KMS Graf von Zeppelin? A nicely rounded commerce raiding battle group of the two carriers, the Bismarck and the Tirpitz plus escorts.....hmmm!
Troy
20.10 - mon, sydney
German Navy's Aircraft Carrier
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The Germans themselves considered GZ inadequate for Atlantic operations.
Any sortie like the one you describe would entail a massive logistics effort after Rheinubung had established the futility of such things.
The Allied forces available by the time these German ships could be ready would be overwhelming.
The KM never had sufficient ocean-going escorts.
Any sortie like the one you describe would entail a massive logistics effort after Rheinubung had established the futility of such things.
The Allied forces available by the time these German ships could be ready would be overwhelming.
The KM never had sufficient ocean-going escorts.
and in what year are you proposing such a battle group?Generalderpanzertruppen wrote:Who knows what would have happened if the KMS Peter Strasser was also completed along with the KMS Graf von Zeppelin? A nicely rounded commerce raiding battle group of the two carriers, the Bismarck and the Tirpitz plus escorts.....hmmm!
Troy
20.10 - mon, sydney
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And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Hi Andy, well, as it's purely hypothetical, I'm proposing the carriers would have been finished by 1940, along with the Bismarck and Tirpitz. Firstly they could have provided great cover for the invasion of England, and if that didn't work out, 1941 could have seen Atlantic duty, or in the Med, for the taking of Crete, Malta then Gibralter. Or even 1942, in the Fuhrer's sudden rush of pro-Japanese solidarity, they could have steamed round to the Pacific, via the Indian ocean! On the way they could wreak a little havoc around Australia, maybe join in with a combined operation to reclaim their former colony of New Guinea before powering out to the Coral Sea or Midway! Purely hypothetical of course.....
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I know that Luftwaffe pilots were trained by the Japanese in carrier operations, take-offs etc, but do you know if any ships personnel were also trained on Japanese carriers, learning how to actually sail them? Or were any staff officers trained for operations by the Japanese?
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The proposed usage during Seelowe would have been to draw away heavey fleet units from any proposed dash south. However the British had determined to defeat Seelowe with Destroyer Flotillas and a cruiser support. So I would propose that there effect on the actual outcome on Seelowe would have been zero. If they (the Germans) had headed south in direct support, then they would be heading for certain destruction. Be that by submarine, mine, land based aircraft or a naval engagement.Generalderpanzertruppen wrote:Hi Andy, well, as it's purely hypothetical, I'm proposing the carriers would have been finished by 1940, along with the Bismarck and Tirpitz. Firstly they could have provided great cover for the invasion of England, and if that didn't work out, 1941 could have seen Atlantic duty, or in the Med, for the taking of Crete, Malta then Gibralter. Or even 1942, in the Fuhrer's sudden rush of pro-Japanese solidarity, they could have steamed round to the Pacific, via the Indian ocean! On the way they could wreak a little havoc around Australia, maybe join in with a combined operation to reclaim their former colony of New Guinea before powering out to the Coral Sea or Midway! Purely hypothetical of course.....
Troy
Getting the fleet into the Med would be an achievement in itself. Once in though, it would never leave. The Italians could have done with the AC's but the BB's weren't required in the Med, since Italy had enough of her own.
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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Although....1941 showed the RN how vulnerable the idea of destroyer/cruiser flotillas were, around Crete, to air attack. And given that Seelowe wouldn't have been launched until air superiority was achieved, the RAF/FAA air cover element would have been sadly lacking. Whereas the land-based Luftwaffe in anti-shipping mode would have been as effective as ever. Seelowe would have been a three- or four-day naval battle of attrition, as the air war had been before, but the end would have been certain - what WASN'T certain was the amount of damage that would have been done to the invasion force and materiel itself; IF it had been attrited to the point at which the British Army's planned coastal defences (ha!) could have stopped it, fine....or even weakened it to the point at which the GHQ and other stop lines would in the end have halted it, fine....but THAT is something we'd only ever have known from the other side of the propesed event....
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Air superiority was not a requirment of Sealowe...that was political. Raeder had always said it was doable even up until second week in september provided the Luftwaffe bombarded the RN ports and Coastal RAF feilds prior to launch. Luftwaffe doctrine never ever required airsuperiority prior to attack, as long as they suppress the enemy long enough to gain forced entry that was enough. When Goering Hitler elected to go for London instead of filling Raeders requirement the whole thing became moote and it was obvious Hitler was favoring Goerings terror war instead of invasion. That was his choice.phylo_roadking wrote:Although....1941 showed the RN how vulnerable the idea of destroyer/cruiser flotillas were, around Crete, to air attack. And given that Seelowe wouldn't have been launched until air superiority was achieved, the RAF/FAA air cover element would have been sadly lacking. Whereas the land-based Luftwaffe in anti-shipping mode would have been as effective as ever. Seelowe would have been a three- or four-day naval battle of attrition, as the air war had been before, but the end would have been certain - what WASN'T certain was the amount of damage that would have been done to the invasion force and materiel itself; IF it had been attrited to the point at which the British Army's planned coastal defences (ha!) could have stopped it, fine....or even weakened it to the point at which the GHQ and other stop lines would in the end have halted it, fine....but THAT is something we'd only ever have known from the other side of the propesed event....
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I don't know Andy, didn't the Luftwaffe effectively close the English Channel during daylight hours leading up to the start of the Battle of Britain? The Stukas & Ju 88's showed they were more than capable of taking the fight to the RN Destroyers, as they showed again in the Med, so I don't think that the destroyers would have necessarily been that decisive, especially if the Kriegsmarine had launched all her own remaining Z-boats and S-boats, so who knows?Andy H wrote:The proposed usage during Seelowe would have been to draw away heavey fleet units from any proposed dash south. However the British had determined to defeat Seelowe with Destroyer Flotillas and a cruiser support. So I would propose that there effect on the actual outcome on Seelowe would have been zero. If they (the Germans) had headed south in direct support, then they would be heading for certain destruction. Be that by submarine, mine, land based aircraft or a naval engagement.
Paul, I thought the decision to bomb London and give up on the so-far successful strategy of attacking airfields, docks etc, was Hitler's, not Goring's? Didn't Churchill sucker the Fuhrer into bombing London after the accidental bombing of London by the Luftwaffe, in which Churchill launched an attack on Berlin, knowing full well that Hitler would respond in kind on London, thus saving Fighter Command and handing victory in the Battle of Britain over to the English?Paul Lakowski wrote:
Air superiority was not a requirment of Sealowe...that was political. Raeder had always said it was doable even up until second week in september provided the Luftwaffe bombarded the RN ports and Coastal RAF feilds prior to launch. Luftwaffe doctrine never ever required airsuperiority prior to attack, as long as they suppress the enemy long enough to gain forced entry that was enough. When Goering Hitler elected to go for London instead of filling Raeders requirement the whole thing became moote and it was obvious Hitler was favoring Goerings terror war instead of invasion. That was his choice.
Hello from sunny Port Macquarie
I'm not getting into the Seelowe debate fully, but only to the point you made about the German AC's & BB's possible involvement. The main bulk of the RN heavy fleet units remained at Scapa, and other northen bases. The RN intended to use DD & CA/CL's for the main intial anti-invasion role.
Thus getting back to your point, the role of a German AC/BB battle group in Seelowe. Its role would be purely diversionary, to draw off any possible surge south by RN heavy units.
As of 16/09/40
Vessels under repair or refitting are marked *
HOME FLEET (ADM CL Forbes)
2nd BS: Nelson (C-in-C), Rodney, Barham
BCS (VADM WJ Whitworth): Hood(F), Repulse (RA(D))
Aircraft Carriers: Furious, Argus
1st CS (VADM JHD Cunningham): Devonshire (F), Australia (RAN), Berwick, Norfolk, Sussex*, Suffolk*
2nd CS (VADM ATB Curteis): Galatea (F), Aurora, Cardiff
15th CS (RADM ELS King): Naiad (F), Bonadventure
18th CS (VADM LE Holland, RADM EN Syfret): Manchester(VA), Southampton(RA), Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh*, Fiji*
1st M/LS (RADM WF Wake-Walker): Southern Prince, Menestheus, Port Napier, Port Quebec, Agamemnon
1st M/SF: Bramble, Britomart, Hazard, Hebe, Speedy, Seagull*
Destroyers (RA(D) RHC Hallifax)
3rd DF (Capt P Todd): Inglefield, Duncan, Echo, Eclipse, Electra, Escapade, Isis
4th DF (Capt PL Vian): Cossack, Maori, Sikh, Zulu, Fame*, Fearless*, Foxhound*
6th DF (Capt C Caslon): Somali, Ashanti, Matabele, Tartar, Bedouin, Punjabi, Eskimo, Mashona*
12th DF: Keppel, Achates, Amazon, Arrow, Active, Antelope, Douglas, Ambuscade*, Anthony*
23rd Div: Cattistock, Eglington, Holderness, Quorn
Submarines (VADM Sir Max Horton)
2nd SMF (Capt GCP Menzies): Taku, Talisman, Tigris, Tribune, Tuna, Cachalot, Porpoise, Trident*, Triumph*
3rd SMF (Capt P Ruck-Keene): Seawolf, Snapper, Sunfish, H 49, Wilk (PO), Sealion*
6th SMF (Cdr JS Bethell): Sturgeon, Swordfish, Ursula, Utmost
7th SMF (under VADM(S)): Otway, Upright, H.31, H.32, H.33, H.34, H.44, H.50, O.9(NL), B.1(NO), Oberon*, H.28*, O.10*(NL)
9th SMF: Clyde, L.23, L.26, O.21(NL), O.22(NL), O.23(NL), O.24(NL), Rubis(FFNL), Severn*
Regards
Thus getting back to your point, the role of a German AC/BB battle group in Seelowe. Its role would be purely diversionary, to draw off any possible surge south by RN heavy units.
As of 16/09/40
Vessels under repair or refitting are marked *
HOME FLEET (ADM CL Forbes)
2nd BS: Nelson (C-in-C), Rodney, Barham
BCS (VADM WJ Whitworth): Hood(F), Repulse (RA(D))
Aircraft Carriers: Furious, Argus
1st CS (VADM JHD Cunningham): Devonshire (F), Australia (RAN), Berwick, Norfolk, Sussex*, Suffolk*
2nd CS (VADM ATB Curteis): Galatea (F), Aurora, Cardiff
15th CS (RADM ELS King): Naiad (F), Bonadventure
18th CS (VADM LE Holland, RADM EN Syfret): Manchester(VA), Southampton(RA), Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh*, Fiji*
1st M/LS (RADM WF Wake-Walker): Southern Prince, Menestheus, Port Napier, Port Quebec, Agamemnon
1st M/SF: Bramble, Britomart, Hazard, Hebe, Speedy, Seagull*
Destroyers (RA(D) RHC Hallifax)
3rd DF (Capt P Todd): Inglefield, Duncan, Echo, Eclipse, Electra, Escapade, Isis
4th DF (Capt PL Vian): Cossack, Maori, Sikh, Zulu, Fame*, Fearless*, Foxhound*
6th DF (Capt C Caslon): Somali, Ashanti, Matabele, Tartar, Bedouin, Punjabi, Eskimo, Mashona*
12th DF: Keppel, Achates, Amazon, Arrow, Active, Antelope, Douglas, Ambuscade*, Anthony*
23rd Div: Cattistock, Eglington, Holderness, Quorn
Submarines (VADM Sir Max Horton)
2nd SMF (Capt GCP Menzies): Taku, Talisman, Tigris, Tribune, Tuna, Cachalot, Porpoise, Trident*, Triumph*
3rd SMF (Capt P Ruck-Keene): Seawolf, Snapper, Sunfish, H 49, Wilk (PO), Sealion*
6th SMF (Cdr JS Bethell): Sturgeon, Swordfish, Ursula, Utmost
7th SMF (under VADM(S)): Otway, Upright, H.31, H.32, H.33, H.34, H.44, H.50, O.9(NL), B.1(NO), Oberon*, H.28*, O.10*(NL)
9th SMF: Clyde, L.23, L.26, O.21(NL), O.22(NL), O.23(NL), O.24(NL), Rubis(FFNL), Severn*
Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die