German Weapons vs. Present

[Silberwrappen]

I was thinking about this the other day, could for example a King Tiger knock out a modern tank such as an Abram. No question that the Abram is superior, I'm not going to argue that.

Is the MG42 still a good enough MG to be in active service today ?

Again I don't want to look stupid, I know that there are better weapons today, just curious if any can still compare to modern ones.

[oleg]

I was thinking about this the other day, could for example a King Tiger knock out a modern tank such as an Abram. No question that the Abram is superior, I'm not going to argue that.

Is the MG42 still a good enough MG to be in active service today ?

Again I don't want to look stupid, I know that there are better weapons today, just curious if any can still compare to modern ones.

any modern IFV can knock any WW II era tank using guided AT missile - so MBT is a bit of an overkill.

[Lustmolch]

I was thinking about this the other day, could for example a King Tiger knock out a modern tank such as an Abram. No question that the Abram is superior, I'm not going to argue that.

Is the MG42 still a good enough MG to be in active service today ?

Again I don't want to look stupid, I know that there are better weapons today, just curious if any can still compare to modern ones.

As far as I'm aware the Bundeswehr are still using a modified variant of the MG42 (the MG3) to this day.

[TPMM]

WWII MGs are close ancestors of moden MGs, as far as I know.
Coming back to your discussion about tanks, NONE of WWII tanks would be able to harm Abrams, Merkava or even Polish PT-94 'Twardy'.

[Paulus II]

I guess it depends a bit on the kind of war you are taking the weapons too. The MG 42 and an assortment of handgrenades would still be excellent weapons today in any war but some other weapons could only be effective in a guerilla.
In the 1990's T34 tanks and Flakv. 38 were used in former Yugoslavia and I think that the weapons cottage industry in Pakistan produces stuff that is less effective than, for example, the Kar.98.
As for the tanks, maybe a modern MBT without it's crew onboard could be taken out by a Pz VI at very close range from behind. If the MBT is crewed I'd bail out of my Tiger and go on a long holiday though.

Cheers,

Paul

[maschinengewehr42]

Coming back to your discussion about tanks, NONE of WWII tanks would be able to harm Abrams, Merkava or even Polish PT-94 'Twardy'.

Well, not from the front at least. But as far as I know the laminated Chobham-style armour of the Abrams isn't present on the rear hull, and I'm not sure it's on the sides either. Hypothetically, the 88mm KwK43 of the Tiger II should penetrate it easily. So would the Panther's long 75mm, not to mention similar weapons of other nations.

The KwK43 could penetrate 200mm of armour at 30 degrees from vertical, at a range of 1000 metres! No modern MBT has armour that thick on the rear plates.

So would it be possible for a WW2 tank to knock out a modern one? Yes, but only on a range or possibly in an ambush situation. In most combat scenarios, the WW2 vehicles would be destroyed at long range by the vastly superior modern guns and fire control systems from way out of the range of the elderly museum pieces.

Just look at what happened to the Iraqi T55s in the first Gulf War. Those were basically WW2 tanks by design, coming into service just after the end of WW2. No laminated armour, no laser rangefinder, no thermal imager, no image intensifier, no gun stabilisation system, and no hope of knocking out an Abrams or Challenger in an open desert environment. They didn't even have a sabot round for the main gun. Predictably, they were slaughtered in tank-to-tank combat. As far as I know, they didn't kill any allied tanks (although T72s managed to).

The MG42 is still a practical weapon today though, and the basically identical Yugoslav copy was much used in the civil wars in that nation from 1991-1995. Outside the Balkans the 7.92 round is not a current service calibre though.



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[phylo_roadking]

Yep, a bullet is a bullet when the target is unarmoured lol

Regarding modern weapons and AFVs tho...Remember the late, unlamented "Colonel Callan", Christos Georgiou and the Angolan mercenaries mess of 1976? Before the British mercenaries arrived, he had wiped out TWO Cuban columns of T34s using LAWS.....once with two other guys and the second time on his own!!!

[krise madsen]

Generally speaking, WW2 small arms are, to an extent, still useful today. Bigger mechanical "items" (i.e. tanks, aircraft and the like) are not.

The very simple reason is that while tanks and aircraft have been the subject of massive technological development since the end of WW2, small arms have not.

If you peel away the wooden furniture of a WW2 small arm, and the plastic and accessory rails of a current weapon, you will find the basics to be very similar. The primary development in terms of small arms has been the proliferation of optics and electronic devices (lasersights e.c.t.) rather than the weapon itself.

This is not to say that modern small arms aren't superior to those of WW2, it's just that the improvements are marginal, rather than the massive ones made in tank- and aircraft technology.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[phylo_roadking]

KM - two examples, one confirming....one contradicting LOL

1/ the current British Army SA-80 infantry weapon ; design and testing of umpteen prototypes began in 1940!!! It took until the 1980s to get it right...and THEN it still wasnt right! Came from an original specification for a compact, telescoped-barrel, assalt weapon for the Commandos.

2/ Wish I cold remember the nickname they gave him, but in the last two years of the Korean War, there was a North Korean Pilot who used to smneak in over the lines each night on the edge of dark and bomb rear echelons, hospitals etc. .....in an old single-engined spotterplane! Sneaking in beneath the air that belonged by day to the MiG15s and Sabres.

[TPMM]

Hi Phylo.
This spotterplane which you write about is Po-2 (or U-2), so called "Kukruźnik". It's first flight took place in february 1928. It was used during WWII and Korean War. Even Vietcong used it during the war in Vietnam!
There was about 40 000 produced, so it is the most widespread plane in the history of aviation.

[Mobile Infantry]

The MG42 which survived the war were later used by German Federal Border guard. Others were used by the Bundeswehr after being adopted to the new smaller calibre 7.62 x 51 mm.

The Pistol P38 has been used until a few years ago though they got new markings as "P1". But I remember that I sometimes still saw pistols with the old marking "P38" back in 1990. We shot with them until they were broken.

[Terje]

The MG42 is still is use all right. It is known as the MG3 in some countries like in Norway, while the M60 light machinegun is essentally an updated MG42.

The MP-43(MP-44?)? Take a look at nearly any modern assault rifle up to the 80s. Ak47s is closely developed from that mechanism, and the CETME assault rifle along with the AG-3 series are not only similar, they are postwar modifications of that weapons by the same engineers that made the MP-43!

The P38/P1 has been mentioned already.

I can't think of any others, though. Remember that many of the weapons that the germany army had in 1940-1941 were designs dating as much as 50 years earlier, and fell short as soon as the enemy got back on their feet and started manufacturing new designs.

[Terje]

Hi Phylo.
This spotterplane which you write about is Po-2 (or U-2), so called "Kukruźnik". It's first flight took place in february 1928. It was used during WWII and Korean War. Even Vietcong used it during the war in Vietnam!
There was about 40 000 produced, so it is the most widespread plane in the history of aviation.

The kukruznik had some things to its advantage. Low speed planes can follow the terrain very closely, in fact under the radar screen. And a propeller plane can be mistaken for a truck from the distance, while a jet plane is unmistakable by sound. They also have a VERY short takeoff compared to any non-VTOL jet.

[Njorl]

Pease correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that .50 cal Browning M2 machine gun is still the same as it used to be before and during WW2

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

No WWII tank could stand up to a 3rd generation MBT. However as far as small arms go there are many modern weapons that are not much different from their WWII ancestors such as the MG3 or AK-47.