Hi
AFAIK the tank replacement to the German army in the east was very low as Hitler wanted the production for new tank units.
These are the replacements for the east front from 22.6.1941-31.1.1942:
Panzer I = 42
Panzer II & IIF = 69
Panzer III = 332
Panzer 38(t) = 108
Panzer IV = 102
Panzerbefehlsw. = 25
Sturmgeschütz III = 15
What I would like to know is when he reverted this stance, does anyone now that?
When was the majority of the production used as replacement?
Germanys restricted tank replacement in 1941
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Germanys restricted tank replacement in 1941
"Spread word to every slave, that even the mighty republic bleeds when struck!"
Re: Germanys restricted tank replacement in 1941
Hello again. What is the source for these figures? I'm afraid the figure given for assault gun replacements is wrong. According to Muller & Zimmermann, Sturmgeschutz Volume 1, in the period to 31.12.41 82 assault guns were issued to units at the Eastern Front as replacements against losses (total write offs) of 96.
In any event there were no assault guns serving in panzer units at this stage of the war. I don't believe that it's the case that Hitler (or anyone else) held back panzer replacements in the first months of the invasion of the Soviet Union. The problem was rather that overall production of tanks was inadequate to sustain a long campaign. Certainly the decision to raise new panzer divisions and add panzer battalions to certain army and SS motorised divisions in the spring of 1942 was a poor one given that tank production was rising only slowly. The inspiration for this MAY have been Hitler's, but you won't find much evidence of his generals objecting. The 'every bad decision was all Hitler's fault' school of Wehrmacht revisionism belongs to its correct Cold War context.
In any event there were no assault guns serving in panzer units at this stage of the war. I don't believe that it's the case that Hitler (or anyone else) held back panzer replacements in the first months of the invasion of the Soviet Union. The problem was rather that overall production of tanks was inadequate to sustain a long campaign. Certainly the decision to raise new panzer divisions and add panzer battalions to certain army and SS motorised divisions in the spring of 1942 was a poor one given that tank production was rising only slowly. The inspiration for this MAY have been Hitler's, but you won't find much evidence of his generals objecting. The 'every bad decision was all Hitler's fault' school of Wehrmacht revisionism belongs to its correct Cold War context.
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Re: Germanys restricted tank replacement in 1941
The Source is "Germany and the Second World War Vol. 4".
I have to correct one thing, the book lists only "Sturmgeschütz", at that time there isn't anything else than the StuG III but maybe something else is meant.
It states the losses with 104 so that is pretty close to your 96.
What do the Muller & Zimmermann numbers cover, StuG III only?
The problems regarding tank replacements are mentioned several times and in different forms so I don't think that's an error.
Main concept behind it was the building of new units as the decision was made(I think early 1941) to raise the number of Panzer Divisionen from 20 to 30.
And in a later stage also the thinking that the war in the east would soon be over so no need to transport equipment to the east, also because ofter victory the divisions that stayed in Russia would get the equipment of those divisions moving back to the Reich where those should get new equipment.
I have to correct one thing, the book lists only "Sturmgeschütz", at that time there isn't anything else than the StuG III but maybe something else is meant.
It states the losses with 104 so that is pretty close to your 96.
What do the Muller & Zimmermann numbers cover, StuG III only?
The problems regarding tank replacements are mentioned several times and in different forms so I don't think that's an error.
Main concept behind it was the building of new units as the decision was made(I think early 1941) to raise the number of Panzer Divisionen from 20 to 30.
And in a later stage also the thinking that the war in the east would soon be over so no need to transport equipment to the east, also because ofter victory the divisions that stayed in Russia would get the equipment of those divisions moving back to the Reich where those should get new equipment.
"Spread word to every slave, that even the mighty republic bleeds when struck!"
Re: Germanys restricted tank replacement in 1941
Yes, Muller & Zimmermann are only concerned with assault guns, which at that point in the war means StuG III only. 104 total StuG losses reported to the end of January 42 could be right; M&Z give 63 StuG III total write-offs Jan-March and there is likely to have been some late reporting going on.
I understand where you are coming from now and half-agree; based on early 'Barbarossa' successes the Germans were over-optimistic about the likely course of events and made plans to 'close down' the Eastern Front. However, they didn't need 30 panzer divisions to fight Britain and actually wanted to shift raw materials resources to the Navy and Luftwaffe. Also, I don't believe that there was much hoarding of new tank production in Germany in the second half of 1941. When I get a chance this evening I'll compare your figures for tank replacements with the tables of monthly Panzer III and Panzer IV production in the appendices to Volume 2 of Tom Jentz's Panzer Truppen.
As I understand it, the real problem was that tank (and assault gun) replacements weren't adequate to deal with the combination of total and temporary losses (AFVs awaiting repair). The arrangements for dealing with vehicles needing major repair were very poor, even after such vehicles had been returned to Germany. Vehicles that could be repaired at the front still needed spare parts and, as everyone knows, the Ostheer's logistical situation deteriorated the further it advanced. No doubt a lot of this stuff has been rehearsed before on Feldgrau, but we're both newish members (and taking the trouble to contribute!)
I understand where you are coming from now and half-agree; based on early 'Barbarossa' successes the Germans were over-optimistic about the likely course of events and made plans to 'close down' the Eastern Front. However, they didn't need 30 panzer divisions to fight Britain and actually wanted to shift raw materials resources to the Navy and Luftwaffe. Also, I don't believe that there was much hoarding of new tank production in Germany in the second half of 1941. When I get a chance this evening I'll compare your figures for tank replacements with the tables of monthly Panzer III and Panzer IV production in the appendices to Volume 2 of Tom Jentz's Panzer Truppen.
As I understand it, the real problem was that tank (and assault gun) replacements weren't adequate to deal with the combination of total and temporary losses (AFVs awaiting repair). The arrangements for dealing with vehicles needing major repair were very poor, even after such vehicles had been returned to Germany. Vehicles that could be repaired at the front still needed spare parts and, as everyone knows, the Ostheer's logistical situation deteriorated the further it advanced. No doubt a lot of this stuff has been rehearsed before on Feldgrau, but we're both newish members (and taking the trouble to contribute!)
Re: Germanys restricted tank replacement in 1941
Well, brilliant. I just spent about an hour on a longish post of the stuff in Jentz, tried to submit and must have timed out as I had to log on again, did so and found I had lost the lot!
Short answer - your figures for Pz III and Pz IV replacements to E.Front amount to only about 1 1/2 to 2 months' worth of vehicles available for issue (new and rebuilt panzers). On the other hand, only 3 new panzer divisions were set up in the second half of 1941, 22nd Pz in September and 23rd and 24th in December. Draw your own conclusions - mine are lost!
Short answer - your figures for Pz III and Pz IV replacements to E.Front amount to only about 1 1/2 to 2 months' worth of vehicles available for issue (new and rebuilt panzers). On the other hand, only 3 new panzer divisions were set up in the second half of 1941, 22nd Pz in September and 23rd and 24th in December. Draw your own conclusions - mine are lost!
Re: Germanys restricted tank replacement in 1941
I have other figures,published in Va Banque,and with as source BA-MA
Replacements from 22june till 31 december(the figures are even available for the 10 days periods)
Pz I 12
PzII 23
PzIII 277
PzIII 38 t 108
Pz IV 80
SG 12
Bef.Pz 7
The production in the 3th quarter was:
Pz II 71
PzIII 484
PzIII 38 t 205
PzIV 128
SG 122
Bef.Pz 13
For the 4th quarter
PzII 113
PzIII541
PzIII38 t 153
PzIV 164
SG 163
Bef.Pz 18
Replacements from 22june till 31 december(the figures are even available for the 10 days periods)
Pz I 12
PzII 23
PzIII 277
PzIII 38 t 108
Pz IV 80
SG 12
Bef.Pz 7
The production in the 3th quarter was:
Pz II 71
PzIII 484
PzIII 38 t 205
PzIV 128
SG 122
Bef.Pz 13
For the 4th quarter
PzII 113
PzIII541
PzIII38 t 153
PzIV 164
SG 163
Bef.Pz 18