Chain of Command

German Heer 1935-1945.

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eolson
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Re: Chain of Command

Post by eolson »

Gentlemen....step back from this a little bit and look at this from my perspective. These questions may sound academic or very basic but I'm asking these questions not because I don't know what a Private is or what they do. I'm asking these questions because I want to know what a German Private (Schütze) did in the German Army in World War 2.

Christoph said "Different armies mean different duties for ranks!!" and " there isn't a 1-1 comparison"

IF there isn't a 1-1 comparison then what is the comparison, that is the reason for my questions, not because I don't have any military knowledge, background, family heritage or national military pride.

I can read all sorts of books on the topic of the German Army, what are your views on the topic we are discussing, which is what I feel is the very nature of this forum.
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Christoph Awender
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Re: Chain of Command

Post by Christoph Awender »

Hello Eolson,

OK sorry for being not clear enough. Of course it is a difference if you speak about a private or like before a NCO or officer. Because you asked for platoon and company commanders. I am sure a private had the same things to do in all armies of the world since the beginning of time.
I am sure a US private had exactly the same daily life as a Landser in the german army.

/Christoph
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Die Blechtrommel
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Re: Chain of Command

Post by Die Blechtrommel »

Hello Eolson,
Sorry being a little rude the other day.
Here's some more definitions of Wermachts enlisted men and Non Comissioned Officers (NCO's):
Gefreiter, Obergefreiter:
"frei" = free. These soldiers had served long enough to be freed from unpleasent Garrison duties, for example cleaning, extra kitchen service etc. They also served as minor drilling intructors, and were deputy leaders of their Squad.

Unteroffizier, Unterfelwebel, Fedwebel:
These men were drill instructors and - most importantly - Squad leaders. They had responsibility of their men and lead them in battles.

Oberfeldwebel, Hauptfeldwebel, Stabfeldwebel:
These quys had served quite a long bit, and had different duties. Most of them were deputy Platoon leaders, that is helping his Leutnant, the Platoon commander, both in battles and training exercises. Others had various administravite duties. The most common and most important could have being serving as "Spiess". Spiess was helping Company commander in administrative duties and most importendly took care of mens well being, but also kept up the disipline especially in Garrisons and Camps.
The higher ranked of them were also serving in Battalion HQs etc.

Hope this helps a bit!
With best
Juha :up:
“Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch !!“
eolson
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Re: Chain of Command

Post by eolson »

Looks good guys, generally speaking in the German Army, what kind of relationships would officers have with each other, Oberleutnant and Hauptmann? Would they talk about personal issues like family, wife and children or would they keep to more professional topics and not try and get to close to each other? Would they ever confide in each other about things they dislike about a military campaign? It's objectives and probability for success, or would they keep these opinions to themselves? Would they ever decide on a one on one level amongst themselves to change a battle plan or objective to suit their needs rather than a directive sent down from Berlin? (I've heard later in the war Berlin directed a lot of field decisions, is this true?)
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Die Blechtrommel
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Re: Chain of Command

Post by Die Blechtrommel »

eolson wrote:Oberleutnant and Hauptmann? Would they talk about personal issues like family, wife and children or would they keep to more professional topics and not try and get to close to each other? Would they ever confide in each other about things they dislike about a military campaign? It's objectives and probability for success, or would they keep these opinions to themselves? Would they ever decide on a one on one level amongst themselves to change a battle plan or objective to suit their needs rather than a directive sent down from Berlin? (I've heard later in the war Berlin directed a lot of field decisions, is this true?)
Naturally Oberleutnant and Hauptmann, especially in the same Company had normally friendly relations. Prussian code-rule, however, was very strict considering obeying orders. Higher ranking officer's order was the Law that had absolutely be obeyed.
Also the behavior with higher ranking officer - let's say e.a. Oberleutnant speaking to a Major - was very formal and strict.
During combats everything was naturally more let loose, unless you were disabaying orders.

Would they ever decide on a one on one level amongst themselves to change a battle plan or objective to suit their needs rather than a directive sent down from Berlin?
In the early years of the war inspiration was accepted, in the Armored Corps even encouraged. Later Hitler's orders went far too low level of command, which restricted the freedom of operations of senior commanding officers even to the Regimental stage. In Battalions and Companies officers must always have some freedom of the way how ordered task were implemented. @{

Talking 'bout politics was not very wise, and also criticisim of conducting military campaigns wasn't widespread, nor recommended. :down:
Grouse and mumbling have always been there amongst all armies. You just had to be careful not going too far! 8)

These are impressions I've got after reading lots of WW II history :[] . My own military experience as Hauptmann der Reserve in the Finnish army are naturally from the post-war period.

@ Christoph, what do you think about my impressions?

Greetings
Juha :D
“Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch !!“
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Die Blechtrommel
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Re: Chain of Command

Post by Die Blechtrommel »

I found an interesting thread from:

http://www.feldgrau.com/interview6.html

Good discription of training and dicipline in the German elite division by Rudolph Salvermoser, a Großdeutschland Veteran.

Here's a section of it, please be patient and read, all of you watching this topic!

"You Don't Think": Military Training

My military training at Bamberg lasted for approximately six months [12] - from April to October 1942. The training was divided into two distinct sessions, each one lasting for about three months. The first session was considered the US Army's version of "boot camp", or basic training to become soldiers with emphasis on infantry. The second session dealt with specialized training in tanks. Despite the fact that we had completed the "labor service", on one occasion during our stay at Bamberg we were detailed to a small village to the north to assist with the harvest. This special duty lasted for one or two weeks and we were returned to our regiment to resume our instruction.

Training in the Wehrmacht was very hard, rigidly organized and disciplined, with long hours and very little, if any, leisure time. We were not eligible for a pass for the first six weeks and then it was granted only if we could successfully pass our first test at saluting. Naturally, they wouldn't want us in town and representing the Army if we were unable to at least render a proper salute to our superiors. Another reason, and may be the main one, may have been to restrict the number of men going into town but, of course, we didn't consider this at the time. I wanted very much to pass but, apparently, when it became my turn to salute, the angle of my outstretched hand to my temple must have been off by a few degrees. Thus, my weekend was spent around the barracks.

We were occasionally issued rations of cigarettes, alcohol and the like, but only on a very limited basis. If it happened to be alcohol, we were only permitted to consume it within the confines of our barracks and, needless to say, no one was allowed out on a pass when the "booze" ration was handed out. I was fortunate to have a very nice platoon sergeant, an Oberfeldwebel (sergeant first class), who gave me the honor of selecting me as his valet. Don't mistake my statement as being facetious, for at that time it was an honor, for me as well as others, to be chosen for that particular task. Despite the fact that I had enough to do, what with keeping my uniforms pressed and spotless, my boots shined to a high luster, and all the rest - plus doing the same for him, it signified that he thought highly of me (as a good soldier) - enough to be his representative and, quite often, pass on his orders to the platoon.

In addition to our continuous drilling, we were often lectured - though not too often on politics. For that matter, I hardly remember any political lectures, so to speak, although this form of indoctrination may have been mixed in with other topics. Every one of us was instructed in nearly every fact of infantry and armored warfare; not just as a soldier who must know how to fight in the ditch or foxhole, or how to assemble or disassemble a firearm blind-folded, but training in tactics as well. In other words, it was put to us like this: "What would you do now if your platoon leader was killed? What course of action would you undertake? What decisions would you make?" Thinking back, it seems like every recruit was trained as a potential leader - one who could competently assume command should the need arise. Naturally, perhaps the greatest emphasis was placed upon obedience. One was expected to obey an order without delay and without questioning the order. One famous expression of the drill sergeants and corporals was, "You don't think, you are not a horse and only horses think - because they have bigger heads!" It sounds really funny now, but in those days we heard it over and over again and we just couldn't question such logic. It seems that logic, most of the time, did not exist in many of the decisions made during training. I think that the main idea was simply to get the recruits to obey without questioning and to do it immediately. We were not to think because there were leaders who were paid to think for us.

There was no talking back to our superiors, no "But, sir!" It may have often been carried to the extreme, but the desired end result was achieved. We were conditioned to follow any order and accept that order from our superiors as law. They were always right and we had nothing whatsoever to say about it unless we were the boss. As an example, an episode while I was at Bamberg illustrates my point. Sometime during the late summer or early fall of 1942, while I was still in training, I received a letter from my grandmother which informed me that an elementary school friend of mine had joined the 35th Panzer Regiment. I believe he was in the 4th Company (I was in the 6th). One evening after dinner I made it a point to visit him. I was with another Army friend of mine and we had just entered the barracks of the 4th Company when, all of a sudden, a voice behind us yelled, "Can't you salute?" We spun around to see a Private First Class of the 4th Company and I replied, "Sir, I did not see you." He encountered my excuse by saying, "I don't care, you always have to see. A soldier must always see what's going on around him". Standing my ground and, since he was neither an officer nor a non commissioned officer, I answered, "Sir, I am not from this Company, I am from the 6th and, since I am not one of your soldiers, I am not obliged to salute you!" At that, he grew extremely indignant and said, "That's what you think!" Afterward, I felt a little uneasy for I knew that I shouldn't have said what I did, although I was telling the truth. On the other hand, I knew that I was right because just a few days before a lieutenant instructor at one of our lectures informed us of certain rules and regulations in the Army. During that lecture, we learned that we were expected to salute every cadre member of our company from the rank of private up. All officers and non commissioned officers were always saluted by anyone beneath their rank. In the course of the instruction, the question was raised, "How about if we see the cadre of another company below the rank of Unteroffizier (lance sergeant), do we salute him?" The answer was, "No, of course not!" I thought I was safe until the next day, while on the drill field, I was ordered to report to the First Sergeant of our Company. He informed me that Hauptmann Thümmler, our Company Commander, wanted to see me immediately at Company Headquarters. I put two and two together and knew right away that the Private must have reported me. I went to Headquarters and the Captain promptly said, "Tell me what happened." After relating the incident to him in my own words, he just looked me straight in the eye and said, "You know you did wrong." I was shocked at his response but outwardly I said, "No, sir. I don't think I was wrong, I was only quoting the Lieutenant and I don't think I misunderstood him". Before he dismissed me, however, he said, "We will see about that!" That very evening there was a special roll call of the entire Company on the first floor of our barracks. Once the Company has fallen in, the Captain informed them of my altercation with the Private from the other Company. "now," he said, "he who agrees with Recruit Salvermoser - step forward." There ensued an awful silence in that big barrack as I stood there next to the Captain. My knees were shaking and I couldn't seem to understand why none of my comrades were moving. They all had attended the same lecture that I had, Didn't they hear the Lieutenant? I think the Captain was just about to turn to me and say, "See, Salvermoser," when I began hearing the resounding clicking of heels on the tiled floors and the men in my Company began moving forward. The Captain did not give the entire Company the chance to move before he shouted, "Company, dismissed!"

There was an additional aspect to this story. Since I was a graduate of an academic high school, I was qualified to be considered for Officers' Candidate School. At that time, I wasn't really interested in taking that step because I realized I was still rather immature and could not imagine myself as a lieutenant leading others into a war when I knew nothing about it myself. The day after the formation, however, the Captain called me to his office again. "Well, Salvermoser," he said, "of course you know what this does to you and to your career." I thought it over for a little while and replied, "I think so, sir; I probably am not qualified to be an officer." "That's right," he said, "but I am going to give you another chance. You are a good soldier otherwise, so I'm going to keep you here for a little additional training in your thinking." You can probably imagine how I felt. Why would I need more training in my thinking when I knew that I was right? By this time, I didn't even want to think about Officers' Candidate School - all I wanted was to be allowed to stay with my friends and comrades, in training as well as on the front - the "good people," the ones I could trust. It wasn't my choice to make, however, so I simply stood there talking to him respectfully until I was dismissed. From this day, his behavior toward me had changed. before the incident occurred, upon saluting one another, he would say, "Good morning, Salvermoser. How are you?" Now all that would pass between us would be a curt salute. I expected to be kept behind when all my friends were shipped off to the Front, but I was shocked when I was made an Assistant Cadre, and being promoted to Oberschütze (a grade between recruit and private first class). On the one hand, I was considered as not capable of being a leader, while on the other, I was given the duty of helping the Platoon Leaders drill the new recruits. It makes sense to me now, but all I could think then was that I had to find some way to prove myself so I could join my friends in the action. My chance arrived with the scheduled Company's tank shoot-out - a gunnery contest in which the tanks would advance upon a target and when they were about 600 meters away from it, while still moving, they would begin firing. Each gunner was allowed forty machine gun shots and all the shots had to be fired by the time the moving tank had covered 100 meters. Our Captain was known to be the best shot in the Regiment, but my score that day far exceeded his. Out of my forty shots, 39 struck the target, most of them in the bull's-eye area, and from that point on, his attitude toward me changed remarkably. In fact, he called me out of formation, shook my hand and said loudly enough for all to hear, "Now that's what I call a good soldier - one who beats my record!" Naturally, it made me feel very good but, in a way, I was glad that I had shown him. Maybe, that's why I shot so well, I had faith in myself. Yet, on the other hand, I was afraid that he would hold that against me if he proved to be a poor loser. He was not, for following this episode, he once again called me to his office and, this time, suggested that I was ready for Officers' Candidate School. I expressed my gratitude, but I was able to extricate myself from the situation without making any firm commitment either way.

Panzer training was far more demanding than the initial infantry basic training. The more fundamental maneuvers such as getting into and out of the tank - the right way and the fastest way - were practiced over and over again. Without thinking, we could leap unto our tank, squeeze into our compartments, or get out of the vehicle at lightning speed. Such endless repetition may have seemed beyond reason at the time, but the ability to perform such maneuvers, to the point of subconscious reaction, saved many tank crewmen's lives.

The rigorous day-to-day program deprived us much of our sleep, but we were healthy, growing young men and it didn't seem to harm us; in fact, we toughened up and became more and more proud of who we were and what we were doing.

Above all else, our goal was to stay alive and to be victorious. The word "defeat" did not exist for us, it existed only for the enemy because we'll conquer the enemy, we'll win the battles, and we'll be the victors!

If you had patience to read this, I suggest you to read the rast of it also from the page above! :D
With best
Johnny B. Goode
“Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch !!“
eolson
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Re: Chain of Command

Post by eolson »

Thank you for the info, great text.
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