Tauchpanzer

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Jexter
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Tauchpanzer

Post by Jexter »

Hello again,

This time I want to ask you some questions from this photo:

http://www.antraspasaulinis.net/uploade ... panzer.jpg

Where could this photo would be taken?
When?
What tank is it here? More info would be good.
From which unit (at least division) this tank could be?

Any help would help :)
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Post by TPMM »

tank: Panzer III
period: summer 1941
area: Belarus (Weißrussland, Białoruś, Bielarus)
unit: some of these tanks were in Guderian's armoured corps; maybe 6 Pz-Abt. from 3 Pz-Div.

correct me, if I'm wrong :roll:
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

III./PzRgt. 18, 18.Panzerdivision :wink:

:[]

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Post by Jexter »

Yep guesing from the logo on the tank it is from the 18. Panzer Div... But what the number "10" indicates?

I found out that this tank is the Tauchpanzer, it was made specially for the invasion of Britain, but as it never came... It was on the basis on Pz III and it could go underwater (submersible tank).

Only two division got these tanks, the 17. and 18. Panzer Divisions (AG Mitte) and they were side by side near Brest (Poland), so I think this photo is from the opening hours of Barbarosa.

Offcourse it could be only a photo from training...

Looking back at my post, so what does that "10" indicates?
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Post by Paulus II »

Hi Jexter,

Here's some more on the Tauchpanzer.

168 Pz III were converted to Tauchpanzer. 160 fighting vehicles of Ausf. F, G and H and 8 Panzerbefehlswagen Ausf. E commandtanks.
The tank in the picture is one of the Panzerbefehlswagen.
Initially four batalions were formed with these tanks -Abteilung A, B, C, D- but when the invasion of England was cancelled Abt. A and B were used to form PzRgt 18 and Abt C and D for PzRgt 28. These regiments were part of 18 PzD from December 1940 to March 1941. At that time PzRgt 28 was disbanded, one Abt remained with 18 PzD as III/PzRgt 18 and the other became III/PzRgt 6 of 3 PzD.
As far as my library allows: no Tauchpanzer were part of 17 PzD.
By this time the Tauchpanzer had been adapted to wading through rivers instead of the sea. The depthlimit was reduced from 15 meters to 4 meters, the long rubber snorkelhose was changed for a rigid tube fitted to the top of the turret and some other minor changes.

In some books this picture is claimed to have been made at the crossing of the Bug river on June 22 1941 but that is probably not the case.
As Jan-Hendrik pointed out this specific tank belonged to III Abt whereas it was II Abt that did the deepwading of the Bug (again, as far as my books on this vehicle say). There is photo evidence that the crossing was done with the long snorkeltube fitted to the top of the turret and that piece of equipment is missing here.
Other books claim it is a 'posed' picture during an exercise before the start of Barbarossa while still others claim it is "somewhere in Russia in 1941"

The numer 10 is the vehicle number. Usually this was a three digit number to identify the company, platoon and vehicle. In the case of this Befehlspanzer it shows the tanks place in Abt-staff.
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Post by Akira Takiguchi »

Pz.Rgt.18 used X0 number for the PzBefWg III in Abteilungsstab at the beginning of "Barbarossa". All three, "10", "20", "30" are recorded in photographs.
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Post by Jexter »

Great info, thank you all.

Then again I would like to getsome sort of proof that the 17. PzD have had no Tauchpanzer's... Maybe some sort of OoB, or division inventory charts.

I would also appreciate inventory charts or detail OoB of the 18. and 3 PzD.

Offcourse I presume is info isn't easy found, but maybe someone have it?

There is photo evidence that the crossing was done with the long snorkeltube fitted to the top of the turret and that piece of equipment is missing here.

Maybe you have that photo?

By the way, Paulus II, could you tell me the book name you refering to?
Last edited by Jexter on Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jexter »

Akira Takiguchi wrote:Pz.Rgt.18 used X0 number for the PzBefWg III in Abteilungsstab at the beginning of "Barbarossa". All three, "10", "20", "30" are recorded in photographs.
Maybe you have those photos? Does this numerical order was used by all german PzBefWg? Or only by Pz.Rgt.18?
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Post by Jexter »

Jan-Hendrik wrote:III./PzRgt. 18, 18.Panzerdivision :wink:

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
http://www.feldgrau.com/PzDiv.php?ID=18

this page says that PzRgt.18 had only 2 Abt...
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

..says much....my source is:
Die Truppengeschichte der 18. Panzer-Division 1940 - 1943 (mit 18. Artillerie-Division 1943 - 1944 und Heeres-Artillerie-Brigade 88 1944 - 1945)Wolfgang Paul, Preußischer Militärverlag, Reutlingen 1989, 435 Seiten
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Post by Akira Takiguchi »

18.Pz.Div. had Pz.Brig.18, to which Pz.Rgt.18 with 3 Abteilungen was subordinated in 1941, as read in page 344 of the book (Kriegsgliederung as of 25.5.1941).
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Post by Akira Takiguchi »

I don't immediately recall any other unit which used X0... Anyway, there were variations and we have to investigate each case to be reasonably sure...

Major von Zeschau on "30"

Image
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Post by Paulus II »

Hi Jexter,
this page says that PzRgt.18 had only 2 Abt...
Indeed it does say so on Feldgrau and the regiment started out with 2 Abteilungen but a third was added in March of 1941.
Feldgrau is good but not perfect :( .
The books I got this from are:
'Panzer III und seine Abarthen' by W. Spielberger and 'PzKpfw III at War' by M. Jerkel and W. Trojca.
The picture of the crossing of the Bug is on the second book but can also be found on Lexikon der Wehrmacht in the section on Tauchpanzer.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... 3Tauch.htm
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Post by Paulus II »

Now that we are discussing Tauchpanzer I'd like to enter a question of my own.
The Tauchpanzer were all Pz III Ausf F, G, H and some PzBefw Ausf. E. And a handful of Pz IV.

I found one bit of text that mentions some 52 Pz III Ausf. E being converted to "wading panzers" in 1940.
It looks like this was a different project than the Tauchpanzer for the invasion of England.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Cheers,

Paul
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III./ PR 18

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; in this case I think better late than never. On the PR 18, it was raised on December 06 1940 in Wehrkreis V for the 18. Panzer-Division with two abteilungen A (I. Abteilung) and B (II. Abteilung). Later on March 01 1941 it got its III. Abteilung from the II. (D) Abteilung of the disbanded Panzer-Regiment 28 (raised on December 06 1940 in Wehrkreis IX for the 18. Panzer-Division with abteilungen C and D).

Panzer-Abteilung A (I./ PR 18 )

Commanding Officer:

Major Manfred Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche und Kaminetz from raising date to the end.

Adjutant:

Oberleutnant Ewald von Stünzner from August 01 1940 to the end.

Sources: http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Mythicpanzer ... on-018.htm and http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... r/PR18.htm

Now, Feldgrau is perfect :up: . Cheers. Tigre 8)
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