Commanders of the Yugoslav Rifle Brigade, 1944?

[sid guttridge]

In 1943 the Red Army formed the Yugoslav Rifle Brigade, reportedly using many Croats captured at Stalingrad.

According to one elderly Croatian I have met personally, the commander of this brigade was the former commander of the Croat regiment captured at Stalingrad and the Yugoslav Partisans were very much suprised when he led the brigade back into Serbia with the Soviet Red Army in September 1944.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the commander of the Croatian regiment captured at Stalingrad was the same man who later commanded the Yugoslav Rifle Brigade?

Cheers,

Sid.

[croat]

Mr. Guttridge:

The Croatian officer you mention is Lt. Col. Marko Mesic. He commanded the artillery detachment of the 369th (Croat) Infantry Regiment that fought at Stalingrad, while Col. Viktor Pavicic was the regimental commander. Mesic did take over command of the remnants of the unit on January 23, 1943, when Pavicic went missing (it is unclear if he was being evacuated and his plane was shot down, or if he tried to leave the pocket by boarding a plane without authorization and was shot). During those final days of the Stalingrad pocket, Mesic and his men fought tenaciously, defending the building of the former Soviet Airforce Academy. Mesic was awarded the Iron Cross 1st class, along with a multitude of military decorations from the then Independent State of Croatia. Upon surrender of the 6th Army, Mesic and his surviving men entered Soviet captivity, where they were treated quite poorly. A number of the men joined the "Yugoslav" Rifle Brigade - a few out of political conviction, more in order to receive food and warm clothing. Altogether 775 Croats served in the Brigade, though not all of them were from the 369th (some were from the ill-fated Italian raised Croat unit that fought on the Eastern Front, while others were from the Croat Airforce or Naval Legions, or even the Hungarian Army). Mesic resisted for a period of time, but ultimately the promise that his men that remained in POW camps would be treated better convinced him to add a red star on his Wehrmacht uniform, have his photo taken for propaganda purposes, and take over, at least on paper, command of the Brigade. Of course, Mesic was simply a figurehead, used as a propaganda tool, and never had any official capacity. The actual unit commander in the field was a Serb (I am still researching his name) that had fought in the Spanish Civil War, and was living in the Soviet Union at the time of Germany's invasion.

Post war, Mesic was handed over to Tito's government, who convicted him of treason for serving in the Croat army, and for joining the Wehrmacht for the attack on the Soviet Union. It is unclear what his ultimate fate was, though several sources conclude that he was liquidated by Tito's police some time in 1947 or 1948. Some information that you may find on the internet about Mesic commanding Tito's "Blue Guard" after the end of WW2 is completely false.

By the way Sid, I am still working on that Bleiburg essay I promised you some time ago. It is taking a heck of a lot longer then I anticipated, but, as you know, life gets in the way of living many times. I WILL have that for you at some point in the not too distant future.

Kind regards from Canada.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Croat,

Thanks for that hard information. It is the sort of fact-based answer I like.

Regretably I am out of full time circulation for several weeks, but I look forward to your Bleiberg piece.

Thanks again,

Sid.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Sid,
my father told me, many years ago, to have seen around Bologna, on late Spring 1945, a unit of Yugoslavian soldiers. They were with the British 8 th Army, wear the British battledress, were employed for labour duties and were, above all, not armed. In fact, as this was a Royal Yugoslavian army unit formed by ex POWs which were, until the 8 sept. 1943 armistice, in the hands of the Italians, they were not considered trustworthy after the British Government had decided to drop King Peter preferring him the new promise Tito.
The unit (maybe a battalion) disappeared during Summer 1945. Perhaps it was sent somewhere, perhaps it was packed as a present parcel for Tito's thugs.
Realpolitik?
Bye EC

[sid guttridge]

Hi Enrico,

If memory serves me correctly Italy recruited Slovenes from Venezia Julia into its army just like any other Italian citizens. I believe that the British took in over 4,000 Slovene deserters or prisoners from the Italian Army in North Africa, 300 of whom already formed the nucleus of 1st Yugoslav Royal Guard Battalion by August 1941.

By 3 November 1943 the battalion contained 106 officers (80% Serb, 20% Slovene) and 1,235 men (80% Slovene, 10% Serb, 10% others).

In 1943-44 a second battalion was then formed from 800 more ex-Slovene prisoners, 600 ex-Slovenes prisoners were sent to the navy and 450 ex-Slovene prisoners went to the air force. A small number of Slovene ex-members of the Folgore Division were sent to No.7 (Yugoslav) Troop of 10 (Inter Allied) Commando.

Thus most of the Yugoslav royal government's troops in exile were actually technically Italian citizens! This greatly weakened its bargaining position with the British compared with many other exiled European governments, whose forces were at least citizens of the countries concerned.

Thus, when the royal Yugoslav forces were moved to Italy the royal government was unable to stop the British from allowing the Yugoslav Partisans to recruit amongst its men, most of whom ended up in the newly formed 1st armoured brigade or 26th Partisan Division on the island of Vis.

Only a single battalion of infantry remained loyal to the royalist government and according to my information it was used for rear area airfield defence by the RAF in Italy. This was presumably the unit your father met.

The British deployed the navy, which remained wholly loyal to the royal government, on the western coast of Italy, so that it could not clash with the Partisans.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. In the Imperial War Museum there is a photo of a group of Slovene prisoners who deserted to the British in North Africa in an Italian armored car.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Enrico,

I had to give up my screen before re-reading my posting. A couple more points:

The Slovenes sent to the Royal Yugoslav Navy were used to man the captured ex-Yugoslav ships returned by the Italian Navy in September 1943.

All the Yugoslavs in royal service were allowed to choose whether they went home after the war or stayed in the West. They were not forcibly repatriated.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Sid,
once again your letter was very interesting.
I think, anyway, that the original Aug. 1941 nucleus of the lone yugoslavian battalion was formed simply by yogo citizens elegible in the M.E. as the sodiers of slovene origin in N.A. were mainly present in the Trieste Division which arrived in Libya only on late Aug. 1941. Perhaps there was some people coming from the Africa Orientale Italiana but I havo not any news about this matter while I'm sure that all the local Eastern Africa activity to recruit Italians was devoted to the planned (then aborted) constitution of a "Italia Libera" anti-Fascist battalion.
The Folgore paratroopers passed to the 10 Interallied Commando is an other very interesting argoument. Any number available?
I knew that in Oct. 1943 two "Partisan" brigades formed in a fortnight by ex Jugo POWs recovered in the southern Italy camps were sent in Dalmazia at the direct orders of Tito. The poor guys were slaughtered by the Germans within some weeks. The other units you quote were, perhaps, the surviviors or others ex POWs found later.
I'm VERY interested about the R.Y.Navy activity in 1944 and 1945. Any further news?
The final piece of news about no actual deportation of the unfortunate Royal Yugo soldiers is a pleasant one. Perhaps, after the previous Russian and Croat massacres the British commands and politicians were a bit more careful. I saw, many years ago, a movie with David Niven and Topol about this sorrow theme staged in 1945 Austria. It was very sad.
Next time EC

[sid guttridge]

Hi Enrico,

I think the circumstances of the Royalist Yugoslavs was rather different from that of the Russians and Croats. The Royalist Yugoslavs had worn British uniforms. The Croats and Russians had worn the enemy's.

I am afraid I don't know how many ex-Folgore Slovenes served in No.7 (Yugoslav) Troop of 10th (Inter-Allied) Commando. A "commando" is roughly equivalent to a battalion today. I will try to find out how big a "troop" was. I suspect it might be equivalent of a platoon, or about 30 men. If so, this would be the maximum number of Slovenes involved.

I found the information on the Royal Yugoslav Navy in a short article in an American naval magazine at least ten years ago. I have the following notes on my computer, but not the source:

"The S-boats Durmitor and Kajmakcalan and the submarine Nebojsa all reached Alexandria in 1941. As the two S-boats were of conspicuously German design they were of limited value, but they did some convoy escort work and participated in the Anglo-French invasion of Syria. The Nebojsa was not a modern vessel and was used only for training.

Following the armistice with Italy in September 1943, a number of ex-Yugoslav vessels fell into Allied hands. The Yugoslav Navy was moved to Malta and there the old torpedo boats T1 ad T5, the minelayer Orao, the gunboat Beli Orao and the minelayers Meljine and Mljet were formally handed back on 17 December 1943. Another mine tender, the Malinska, was returned on 16 February 1944. The British also lent the Yugoslavs the Flower Class corvette Nada in early 1944 and eight American-built MGBs (181-188) in mid year.

However, probably because the Partisans objected to their royalist affiliations, they were apparently deployed only on the Italian west coast, not in the Adriatic.

At the end of the war nearly a hundred of the small navy's officers declined to return to Tito's Yugoslavia, while the ex-Yugoslav vessels were handed over to Tito in August 1945."

The information on the 600 Slovene ex-prisoners being sent to the navy came from a different source.

That is all I have with me at present.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. According to my information only 35 Yugoslav officers and 20 Yugoslav other ranks had succeeded in escaping to British lines in the Middle East by late 1943. If so, it is still probable that the Yugoslav Royal Guard Battalion was initially largely formed from ex-Italian Slovenes. There were about 100,000 Italian prisoners in British hands by August 1941, so it is not too unlikely that there were 300 Slovenes amongst them.

(My grandfather, who spoke Italian, escorted some of them to India, where he was put in charge of a POW camp over 1941-43. We still have a silver cigarette case made from Indian silver that some Italian POWs made and gave him).

P.P.S A question: How did the four permanent North African divisions of the Italian Army recruit. There were not enough Italian colonists to supply four divisions, so I presume they recruited in Italy. Perhaps there were Slovenes on their strength?

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Sid,
good week end.
According a statistic base the Slovene element (Yugoslavian sources) among the Italian 43 millions of inhabitants in 1940 population was less than 300.000 (the total slavic was a little more of 600.000 but the half was formed by Croats in Istria who preferred to be loyal until Aug. 1943 when the first resistence acts - cutting of some thelephone lines - happened, while the Slovene fraction was much more active since 1919 with some terrorist acts (or, if you prefer, freedom fighters initiatives; I think that's impossible to give a not passionate opinion being one of the part of the contest; it would be as asking you what's your sincere and politically correct opinion about IRA bombs).
I'm going to think so that most of the first 1941 Yugo Batallion had to be formed by Yougo citizend eligilbe and living in M.E. (the Greek brigade which fought at El Alamein had the same origin for the troop with officiers and NCO arrived the year before from their homeland).
A British recruit activity for this single unit is sure (they were trying since 1941 to create an Italian Legion so I diont'see why they had not to try with she Slovene element) but I think it was a very long affair.
Dont'forget, than, that not all the Regnicoli (citizen of the Kingdom) of Slovene origin were ready to join the Yugoslavian colours. There were many cases of stubborn loyalty to Italy during the First and the Second World war and after 1945 too. The Slav nationalism was a quite new component born socially in the late XIX Century while the traditional tendency in that region, since Middle Age, of the upper and medium classes was to chose the Italian or German lenguage.
.
The four Italian divisions formed in Libya in 1937 (Sirte, Sabratha, Marmarica and Cirene) had, until Nov. 1938, only the cadres, the materials and a total, permanent strenght of 10.000 men.
The 42.000 men necessary to complete them and the various, smaller units of the two XX and XXI Corpi d'Armata, were recrutited by a Government order in the southern part of Italy. These men arrived since Nov. 1938.
Teling the truth the officier level of these troops was of the lowest standard, so training, morale and effectivness of the troops sent in Libya on 1939 and Spring 1940 were worste than debatable.
Marshall balbo know perfectly this situation and proposed to re introduce, on Autumn 1939, for the Libya troops only the very hard Great World War law of discipline but as always Mussolini preferred the more politic soft, unuseful, way.
The winter 1940 disaster was so a well foreseen one but everyone, in the central Rome command of the Regio Esercito, prefferred to look, before Dec. 1940, in some other place. The general idea, among the Italian generals sinc 1918, was that the British soldiers were too much pampered to fight.
The very attack by O'Commor Corp on 9 Dec. 1940 was the first, fatal shock. British fighting! Look that this was not a Fascism principle but a one which originated from the Gen. Gought's 8th Army disaster during the March 1918 Kaiserslacht offensive.
The subsequent British vicissitudines in Turkey, Iraq, Ireland , Whei-Hai-Wey ect. confirmend, according the Italian point of view, to confirm this common people opinion.

There were, of course, among the Italian 10 Armata good examples of officiers and too meny sodiers died in a corageous and perhaps futile way but the reality was this one. It was only since Spring 1941, after the well officiered divisions Ariete and Trento had arrived in Lybia and that serious trining begin in that theate of war that thing went better.

We could go on with this argoument, but perhaps it would be better to create a new title. Bye EC

[sid guttridge]

Hi Enrico,

I think the Greek situation in the Middle East was very different from the Yugoslav. There was a very large and ancient Greek community in Alexandria which supplied the first battalion of Greeks raised by the British. However, most of the rest of the first Greek brigade used at El Alamein was made up of former members of the Evros Brigade, which had retreated into Turkey in mid-April 1941 and whose men had been allowed to travel on to British held territory by the Turks.

By contrast, there was no comparable Yugoslav colony in the Middle East to recruit from.

Gough's Army was the 5th Army. If Italian generals had really studied this battle, in which the 76 best divisions available to the German Army attacked the weakest British army of 28 divisions, they would have realised that British troops might be expected to fight. Of course, the first day was a very impressive German victory by WWI standards, but it cost them more dead (over 10,000) than the British suffered (7,000) and their wounded (29,000) was nearly three times those recorded by the British (10,000). The difference came in prisoners, of which the British lost 21,000, presumably many of them wounded.

It is worth mentioning that 21 March 1918 was probably the worst day for the British Army throughout the entire First World War and probably its only clear defensive defeat by the Germans throughout the conflict. If the Italian generals were using this one incident to draw up a national stereotype of the British will to fight in 1940 they were not being very wise.

I have always attributed Italy's defeat in Egypt in December 1940 largely to lack of motor transport. The British were almost fully mechanised. However, the massive Italian Army in Libya was not. It had no genuine motorised divisions, only "autotransportable" divisions. These were lightly equipped so that they could be moved by army-supplied motor transport, but did not have many organic motor vehicles of their own. As a result, when the advance from Libya began, the Italian motor transport picked up the autotransportable divisions one by one, drove then into Egypt, dropped them off to dig in, and went back to Libya to pick up the next one. After a while there were so many Italian troops inside Egypt that it was absorbing all the motor vehicles available just to keep them supplied and the advance could not be resumed. When the British counter-attacked with their much smaller but more fully motorised forces they found the forward Italian troops completely immobile and very vulnerable - especially to Matilda tanks, which no Italian anti-tank gun could penetrate.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Sid,
I agree with you that the Italian generals opinion about the so called, modest British attitude to fight was a tragic error but I can confirm you that this was not a sentiment of the Italian Army staff but a general feeling, not only in Italy but almost in Europe during the Twenties and the Thirties. It's difficoult to undestand, today, the believings of so many years ago but this was the common opinion of the time. The Kaiserschlacht offensive against the British had on the Continent (and in the USA too) cultural effects which went beyond any correct military analysis. The Jutland too opened, suddenly, undreamed possibilities in Italy, France, Japan, USA and so on. It's possible to discuss until the end of the centirues about who was th ereal winner of that battle but the consequence was, historically, only one for the "man of the road" (common poeple, I don't know what's the British equivalento of Bonhomme Richard) the Royal Navy is no more invincible.
Both these perhaps not generous worldwide opinions were the sons of the too much "Colonial" style the British performed towards all the others people during the Victorian age. To identify Germans, French, Italians, Spaniards ect. (not to mention the "Goddamed colonials" on the other side of the Atlantic) with Gunga Din was a great cultural mistake.
Military and general culture were modest, then, a few newspapers, no TV, not many radio sets in the houses and so on. it was a different world and to try to analize it with the today mentality is a wrong and not correct exercise towards men who had not the actual categories, just to une the Kant terms.
A good historical research, so must respect, according my opinion, the actual spirit of the time, not to justify the responsables of the main mistakes but to understand the people reactions, their fears, their hopes, their surprises and the subsequent resolution.
Perhaps the nowadays various British government stubborness is the consequence of a pragmatic examination of these far days wrong opinion. No more prestige losses would mean, so, more peace (and less blood) in the XXI Centrury. If this is the real situation once history may be useful. at least. Churchill wrote something about "years ate by the locusts" or something like it referring to the period between the wars. Military he was often a ruinous, pipe dreams leader, but as a politician and a man with the sense of history he was many feet taller than all the others so called "eminent churchillians".

Bye EC

PS About the Winter 1940 campaign I think you could open a new title, as it seem me that the actual argouments are a bit too much far from the originary Yugo Bridadiers theme.
The first problem of the 10 Armata were, however, officiers and NCO, not trucks. There were only 8.000 but the British too had planned to be able to do only a five days raid and used, after the first encounters, the Italian prizes to arrive at Bardia and the trucks found there to arrive around Tobruch.
On May and June 1941 at Sollum the Matildas were destroyed by the same old style artilliery and 47/32 antitank guns which were available during the winter 1940-41 Campaign. Better officiers and, as a consequence, training, made the difference. Next time EC

[sid guttridge]

Hi Enrico,

Alexandria had a Greek population 90,000 in 1939.

I am suprised that the German offensive against the British in March 1918 had any resonance in Europe, because I thought that the British Army had no great reputation on a continent where everyone else down to the size of the Netherlands, Greece and Bulgaria maintained bigger peace time armies than we did.

However, I take your point about Jutland opening up possibilities to smaller continental naval powers.

My personal feeling is that the British weakness at Jutland lay primarily in the technical field, where the Germans proved decidedly superior. If one takes away the British ships lost due to technical faults not shared by the Germans, then the ballance of losses would be heavily in British favour. In terms of the Admirals I would say that Jellicoe proved superior in that he successfully placed the Grand Fleet between the High Seas Fleet and its base and twice crossed its "T". I would count Jutland as a failure for both sides and a victory for none.

However, the long term strategic consequences favoured the British. As someone once said "The German High Seas Fleet has assaulted its jailer and isstill in jail."

Your "man for the road" sometimes used to be called Joe Bloggs or the Man on the Clapham Omnibus in the UK. I think something like Joe Average or The Man in the Street is more common nowadays.

I think that it is a misperception that the British regarded Continental Europeans as on a par with conquered colonial peoples. The British certainly felt they were top nation (with reason) and were not shy to let others know this. However, they viewed the major continental states as dangerous rivals, not inherent inferiors.

Anyway, I will follow your advice and close my participation in this thread.

I will talk to you elsewhere.

Cheers,

Sid.

[KlemenL]

Hi,

In 1943 the Red Army formed the Yugoslav Rifle Brigade, reportedly using many Croats captured at Stalingrad.

Yes, the 1st Yugoslav Rifle Brigade in Soviet Union included around 900 Croats - survivors of the ill-fated 369th Reinforced Croatian Infantry Regiment at Stalingrad, a small group of "Medjimurci" from the Royal Hungarian Army, then a group of Croatian communists and other emmigrants living in Soviet Union before the war and interestingly, there was apparently even a small group of Dalmatians, who were working or living Persia (today Iran) in 1940. The brigade also included a small contingent of Serbs and Montenegrians, who were living in USSR before the war, while the largest contingent into the brigade was made up of Slovenes, who found themselves captured as German, Italian or Hungarian soldiers on the East Front during 1942-1945.

P.S. In the Imperial War Museum there is a photo of a group of Slovene prisoners who deserted to the British in North Africa in an Italian armored car.

Sure like to see this photograph, Sid!

Only a single battalion of infantry remained loyal to the royalist government and according to my information it was used for rear area airfield defence by the RAF in Italy. This was presumably the unit your father met.

After September 1943, when the story about Tito fighting against the Germans and Mihailovic not, majority of the men of the Royal Yugoslav Guards Battalion, Royal Yugoslav Navy Squadron and various supply units joined to some of the Tito's forces which were at that time headquartered in Southern Italy. Only a small contigent of men remained loyal to the Royal Government, probably less than a company and several warships in Taranto. They were mostly drafted into the American or British armed forces in Southern Italy and saw some combat in Southern and Northern Italy in 1943-1945. However, they should not be mistaken for "Yugoslav" labour companies in Sardinia, Corsica and Southern France in 1943-1945.

A small number of Slovene ex-members of the Folgore Division were sent to No.7 (Yugoslav) Troop of 10 (Inter Allied) Commando.

May you tell me where did you get thiis information from? I have never heard of any Slovenes in the Folgore Parachute Division what alone any of them being send to the No.7 (Yugoslav) Troop of 10 (Inter Allied) Commando! According to my source, around fifty specially selected men from the Royal Yugoslav Guards Battalion in Palestine and Jordania were sent to Eastbourne, England, in early 1943 to complete command traning and to form a special troops inside the 10th (Inter-Allied) Commando. The troop was commanded by one Lieutenant Keravin and apparently also saw some fighting in central Italy in 1943 until being disbanded in mid-1944 on the island of Vis. My friend from Austria and I have been doing some "unsucessful) research about this unit some months ago, so any new information you may have about this unit are more than welcomed.

In 1943-44 a second battalion was then formed from 800 more ex-Slovene prisoners, 600 ex-Slovenes prisoners were sent to the navy and 450 ex-Slovene prisoners went to the air force.

Where did you get these numbers, if I may ask?

By 3 November 1943 the battalion contained 106 officers (80% Serb, 20% Slovene) and 1,235 men (80% Slovene, 10% Serb, 10% others).

Or this one?

If memory serves me correctly Italy recruited Slovenes from Venezia Julia into its army just like any other Italian citizens. I believe that the British took in over 4,000 Slovene deserters or prisoners from the Italian Army in North Africa, 300 of whom already formed the nucleus of 1st Yugoslav Royal Guard Battalion by August 1941.

That is correct. All Slovene or Croats from Venezia Julia and Julia serves in the Royal Italian Army just like any other Italian citizens, although in late 1941 the Italians started abandon this practice by forming special "Yugoslav" labour companies, and three of them eventually even found themselves with the units of the Aquila Division on the island of Corfu and Kefallonia in 1943. Of course, Slovenes have been serving also in Soviet Union, Greece, Italian East Africa and in other armed branches, includign air force and navy. Some even got decorated by the Golden Medal of Bravery.

I knew that in Oct. 1943 two "Partisan" brigades formed in a fortnight by ex Jugo POWs recovered in the southern Italy camps were sent in Dalmazia at the direct orders of Tito. The poor guys were slaughtered by the Germans within some weeks. The other units you quote were, perhaps, the surviviors or others ex POWs found later.

The two Yugoslav Partisan Overseas Brigades, one formed in Italy and another in United Kingdom saw some heavy fighting in Northern Dalmatia in 1944/1945, especially around Rijeka, where they were heavily decimated. The story goes that during one assault on one German fortified positions near Rijeka the political commissars with their men stood behind the attacking lines, killing each one who was attempting to retreat back due to heavy enemy firepower. A sick way of how to achieve a goal, I know....

I think, anyway, that the original Aug. 1941 nucleus of the lone yugoslavian battalion was formed simply by yogo citizens elegible in the M.E. as the sodiers of slovene origin in N.A. were mainly present in the Trieste Division which arrived in Libya only on late Aug. 1941.

On the 12th of May 1941 the Royal Yugoslav personnel (including the navy and air force) in Egypt and Palestine numbered 404 men, of which 7 generals, 114 officers, 54 non-commisioned officers and 229 soldiers, of which only one infantryman, the rest aircrews or sailors aboard the escaped vessels. This was all what had remained of 650,000 strong Royal Yugoslav Army after April disaster in 1941.

It was not until the Operation "Compass", when two prominent Slovene politicians who were politically active in Egypt even before the war, pressed on the Royal Yugoslav Government to allow Slovene POWs from the nearby Al-Agamy Camp to enlist themselves into the 1st Royal Yugoslav Guards Battalion, which was at that time badly understrength with only about 100 men, most of them army officers. Soon new recruits were pouring into the battalion, including those from Italian East Africa, Somalia, India, Kenya, South Africa, Palestine and some even from Argentina and the French Foreign Legion in French North Africa. When enlisting into the battalion, each recruit swore to the King Petar II. and received a Yugoslav citizenship, thuis revoking the Italian one, so that by September 1943 all soldiers were technically Yugoslav citizens.

I will try to find out how big a "troop" was

Originally a commando troop in the 10th Inter-Allied Commando had around 76 men, but according to some information I have the Yugoslav Troop's strength stopped at around forty or so.

A British recruit activity for this single unit is sure (they were trying since 1941 to create an Italian Legion so I diont'see why they had not to try with she Slovene element) but I think it was a very long affair.

I have never heard of the British ever considering of forming the Free Italian Legion in North Africa. However, according to my source, a memorial book written by former Italian-Slovene POWs in North Africa, they mention one Italian captain who was sent to Italy via Red Cross exhange due to his illness and claim that he had brought back to Italy a list of those Slovene POWs from Al-Agami Camp who had join the Royal Yugoslav Forces in the Far East, even claiming that the Allies are trying to form some sort of the Italian Anti-Fascist Detachment, a statment which has later proved to be false. Perhaps I should emphasize that the general relations between Slovene and Italian POWs in the camp were not good and as a result of this a special perimeter within the camp was created to separate them, what caused a lot of anger from Italian side. The situation also drastically changed in 1941, when Poles from the Carpathian Brigade overtook the camp and on Slovene initiative started to draft them into the brigade but then the Italians complained about this to the British who then with MPs screened the Poles and returned some of them back to the camp. However, around 60 Slovene servicemen (whose surnames and names had been previously effectively "polanized" ) stayed with the Polish Carpathian Brigade and some apparently even saw combat in Tobruk before joining to the Royal Yugoslav Guards Battalion.

There were many cases of stubborn loyalty to Italy during the First and the Second World war and after 1945 too.

Yes, but this was more an exception than a rule. There were Slovenes and Croats who italianized themselves and remained with the Italians, but most of them "had already been lost" before World War II. However, despite this, there have been some Slovene servicemen who also saw combat activities in Italian co-belligerent army and air force 1943-1945, one even receiving the Medaglie dell'Oro for his performence in Abruzzi.

The Slav nationalism was a quite new component born socially in the late XIX Century while the traditional tendency in that region, since Middle Age, of the upper and medium classes was to chose the Italian or German lenguage.

Gee, Enrico, you're speaking here like "Slav nationalism" should be forbidden. Afterall wasn't the 19th Century the century of nationalism? I don't see why "Slavs" should be an exception here. Then again please define me what does the word "Slav" mean??:?: Does this mean that in the future I need to referr to the Italians as Romanic or what?

thelephone lines - happened, while the Slovene fraction was much more active since 1919 with some terrorist acts (or, if you prefer, freedom fighters initiatives; I think that's impossible to give a not passionate opinion being one of the part of the contest; it would be as asking you what's your sincere and politically correct opinion about IRA bombs).

Actually the Irish Republican Army served as a model to the TIGR, the Slovene anti-fascist organization in the Littoral, although comparing TIGR with today's IRA would be mildly to say funny

Of course, as usually, no one in Italy asks himself how come that some of their citizens dediced to put a fight against Fascism. The TIGR, opposite to the IRA, never carried out sabotage actions on a densely populated areas and if my memory serves me good, their primary targets were Italian military posts, railway links and fascists school, newspaper and cultural institutions in Venezia Julia, who were set up there primarly to italianize the province as quickly as possible as Mussolini himself pointed our during his visit in Gorica (Gorizia). I believe that, besides several Italian military personnel, the only "civilian casualty" of the TIGR was the editor of the fascists newspaper "Il Piccolo" in mid-1930s, who tried to save some documents from his burning office. Accidently this same editor was also one of the leading Italian fascists in Triest.

So please spare me with your comparison of the TIGR with the Irish Republican Army and to suggest that their "crimes" have been on the same level as the ones committed by IRA in 70s or 80s. Just to get clear some things - the TIGR among others also had an extensive support of the Italian Anti-Fascist Committe in Paris, including the Social Democrats, Communists and several other Italian political fractions in exile. Their primary target was to fight against fascist opression and to re-unite the lost provinces with Slovenia, what has been proved in the last couple of years when new documents from both sides have come to surface. This can also explain why some many TIGR members lost their lifes not only ion Italian jails but also from the hands of the Yugoslav (Slovene) Communist Party during and after the war.

What kind of loyalty do you expect from a nation to whom the authorities in Rome have forbidden to speak, talk or sing in their own language or to carry own their century long traditions. Hell, they even italianized their surnames on tombstones.

By contrast, there was no comparable Yugoslav colony in the Middle East to recruit from.

Actually there was a substantial Slovene colony in Egypt in 1939/1940. They even published their own newspaper called "Bazovica", I think.
Actually all those Slovene politicians which I have mentioned upper belonged to this or that way to the TIGR and many of them were also members of the Intelligence Service, such as for example Prof. Ivan Rudolf from Cairo. There is no secret that during 1938/1939 there were made some contacts between TIGR and Intelligence Service and Duxieme Bureau in order to provide them with necessary intelligence material about German and Italian army transports, shipbuilding facilities, and conducting some minor sabotages in exchange for British and French support.

So much from the Agressive Man from the East...

Klemen

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Klement,
quite an impressive answer.
I didn't know many things you explained and, as your sources are clearly sound, I can only be grateful.
Let me add, anyway, for general knowledge by the other readerds, some little point:
as there were not Fascist schools in Italy (except for the Scuola di mistica fascista in Rome, a Party cadre institution) but simply schools which, in a totalitarian state, were, of course rallied with the government (excapt, for some aspects, the catholic ones) I have to presume that the TIGR acts against these schools were directed against the pupils.

The "Slav" term was a lapsus for "sciavi", a triestine word which stays mainly for Slovens but which mean Crots, Serbs and, generally, all the eastern poeople of that multiethinc county who are not Italians, Germans, Hungarian and Jews.

No confrontation with IRA. My personal opinion, however, is Up the Republic!

1938-1938 minor sabotages. This is, perhaps, the most interesting new piece of news. During that same time were destroyed, by sabotage acts, the powder factories of Bologna and Piacenza. My father financial expert was a woman who had lost her right eye when the Bologna factory exploded.
For this act there was a trial, in 1941, and 55 Slovene and Italian men were condemned. 5 of them were shot on 16 Dec. 1941. An other one, Luigi Skamperle, from trieste, died in prison during what is possible to consider, in a very optimitic way. a very hard test cross examination.

Freedom fighters? Terrorists? I'm afraid that it's impossible to give an easy answer. Their country won, at least, and they were considered heroes. If their side had lost they would be considered today officialy and simply criminals except, of course, by the members of an other undereground group.

What is sure is that they had not an uniform and were not fighting according the Geneva Convention rules (signs which may be recognized from a certain distance and that they had to wear all the time, no attacks against civilians, ect. ).

So much from the very peaceful man from the West. EC

[sid guttridge]

Hi Klemen,

Good stuff.

As I understand it, the Yugoslav Rifle Brigade contained 1,500 men. So, if my calculations are correct, virtually every survivor of 369th Croat Infantry Regiment must have served in the Yugoslav Rifle Brigade, of which they made up some 60% of the manpower. This is not something Croat nationalists now tend to dwell on! This would also mean that Sovenes could not have made up the largest contingent. Can you clarify these statistics?

I have seen the photo of Slovene deserters with an Italian armoured car at the Imperial War Museum Photo Library. However, I did not take a copy because they wanted about £8 a print. If you write to them you should be able to get a copy yourself - but the price will certainly have gone up in the last few years.

I had not heard of the Yugoslav labour companies before.

I will try to dig out the source of the various statistics regarding the transfer of Italian Slovene prisoners into the royal Yugoslav armed forces in exile. The original source will be either in the British Library, the Imperial War Museum Reading Room or the Public Records Office at Kew. On my laptop I only have the notes I posted on this thread. My original notes are on a notebook in the attic or garage.

The timing for ex-Slovene members of the Folgore Division to reach 10th Inter Allied Commando is right. Most of the Folgore prisoners would presumably have been taken at El Alamein in early November 1942 and you say the Yugoslavs were only sent from the Middle East to Britain for commando training in early 1943. (I know personally an Italian member of the Folgore, who now lives with his Belgian wife in the south of France. He was wounded before El Alamein and was captured while convalescing in hospital in Tunisia in May 1943. He was enlisted by the US special forces and used in Sicily by them only two months later, so such a fast turn around is technically possible. He became a professional footballer after the war and eventually found a career with the UN.)

Operation Compass was in December 1940. Does this mean Italian-Slovene POWs were enlisted by the British before Yugoslavia entered the war? If so, what unit did they join initially? Or did this recruitement only start after the Yugoslav Government reached the Middle East in April 1941? The latter seems more likely.

I was interested to read of the Slovene colony in the Middle East. I know there were 90,000 Greeks in Alexandria alone. How many Slovenes were there? When and why did they migrate there?

Cheers,

Sid.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Enrico,

You do know that supporting the Irish Republic and supporting the IRA are two different things? There was a civil war immediately after the British left that cost more Irish lives than the fighting against the British had. It pitched the IRA against the new Irish Free State (later Republic). The IRA were beaten and have been outlawed in Eire ever since!

Ireland is now doing very well. Average income is now higher than in the UK and the dead hand of the Roman Catholic Church has largely been lifted from society, so reconciliation with Northern Ireland is now more possible than ever before.

Good news in the world. Rare indeed!

Cheers,

Sid.