Strength of 1. PD, 7. PD, DR, 19. PD, 25.P.D. at Zhitomir

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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Igorn
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Strength of 1. PD, 7. PD, DR, 19. PD, 25.P.D. at Zhitomir

Post by Igorn »

Gents,

I am doing a research of Zhitomir-Berdichev operation 1943 and while I have full details on the strength and losses of the LAH through out November-December 1943 and Jan 44 I am lacking full details on strength and casualties of 1. Panzer Division, 7. Panzer Division, DR, 19. Panzer Division and 25. Panzer Division.

Maybe guys like Panzeralex or Martin Block can help with these info.

I would be extremely grateful to see strengths and casualties figures from early November 1943 till end of January 1944 for the above mentioned units.

Thanks in advance.

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
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Pz Div Strengths

Post by donwhite »

Igorn,
This is taken from Thomas Jentz's 'Panzertruppen 1943-45' and is only brief.
1.PD as at Nov'43 (No specific date stated but obviously before commitment with XXXXVIII PzK in Mid Bov'43). 95x Pz IV(lang), 76 Pz V, 7x Pz Bef, 7x Flammpz, 2x VK6.01, 8x VK18.01

25.PD (again no specific date stated but likely before commitment with 4th Pz Army) 93x Pz IV(lang), 8x Bef.

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Post by Igorn »

Hi Donwhite,

Thanks very much for the information. I wonder if you have any data on the armour strehgth of the 7. P.D. and 19. P.D.

Thanks in advance,

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
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7 & 19.PD's

Post by donwhite »

Igorn,
Unfortunately in this publication Jentz only details the specific tank strengths of units that were newly arrived to a particular front. Hence there is no mention of 7 & 19.PD. I think (from memory) there is a reasonably detailed post by Jack Radey on the old 'Russian Military Forum' some time back which might be of some help. I also recall that in the designer notes from his wargame 'A bold stroke', their is a mention of 7.PD as having '30 Panzers' on the eve of 3rd Nov'43.

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7.PzD

Post by John Hilly »

Hi!
I have only few numbers of the 7.PzD, but I write them here anyway, if only to show the amount of its losses in 9 months.

01.07.1943:
21 PzKw II
91 PzKw III (long)
14 PzKw III (75)
18 PzKw IV (short)
37 PzKw IV (long)
7 Befehl Pz
Total 112

19.04 1944:
7x ?
Total 7

Juha :!:
“Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch !!“
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Post by Igorn »

Gents,

According to Jentz the composition of German panzer forces on the eve of Zhitomir-Berdichev in November 1943 was as follows:

1. Panzer-Division - 95 Pz IV (lg), 76 Pz V, 7 Flammpz;
25. Panzer-Division - 93 Pz IV (lg), 8 PzBef
1. SS-Panzer-Division - 95 Pz IV (lg), 96 Pz V, 9 PzBef, 27 Pz VI
sPzAbt 509 - 45 Pz VI
16. Panzer-Division - 98 Pz IV (lg), 42 StuG, 12 PzBef

The strength of 7. Panzer-Division and 19. Panzer-Division as of November 1943 I couldn't find in Jentz book. Maybe somebody can provide these info.

Best Regards from Russa,
Igor
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Post by Igorn »

I am reading now the Hitler and his Generals. The Stenographic records of the Military Conferences 1942-1945. And I found an interesting record of the Midday Situation Report, November 19th, 1943

“ZEITZLER: The whole 1st Panzer Division, 7th Panzer Division and the Leibstandarte will go in there-so all three, not just one. He wants to cover with the infantry and the 8th Panzer Division, which is there. So, he is creating a big focal point there with the 19th Panzer Division from down here as well. The 25th Panzer Division has deteriorated greatly. Guderian has an officer down there, and I want to talk to him about the causes when he comes back. It has deteriorated drastically.
THE FUHRER: And how long has it been in combat without a break now?
ZEITZLER: The 1st Panzer Division had held itself together well – the best, actually.
THE FUHRER: There are still 27 here, too.
ZEITZLER: Nearly 100 are out altogether.
BUHLE: Of these 70 are out
THE FUHRER: I mean Panthers. That is an incredible loss. Thirty of the others are out. So how did this happen? It’s heavily armored and has double the losses of the Panzer IV.
ZEITZLER: And it even joined the battle later.
THE FUHRER: So something must be wrong. It’s impossible. This can’t be. Both detachments were equally strong-they had about 90 tanks. There are 61 Panzer IVs, and only 27 of the others, which means that the one lost about 60 and the other 39. And its armor plating is better. He has 17 Tigers and 23 assault guns. It’s like this: one-third of the tanks are gone, one-third of the assault guns are gone, one-third of the Panzer Vis-he had 17-are gone, and two-thirds of the Panzer Vs are gone. There must be some connection.
PFEIFFER: But they can all be repaired quickly
THE FUHRER: I don’t care. At the moment they are all gone. I hear about quick repairs everywhere, but they never come back-they always stay away. I am curious as to when they will appear again. They always say: in a short time.
ZEITZLER: Short-term repairs do come back in and cover the losses a bit, of course. But with the Vs the number is too high.
THE FUHRER: But the others have losses, too. There the losses reach 30%.
ZEITZLER: They were deployed a few days later
HEUSINGER: The 25th Panzer Division came in on the 8th November 1943 and the 1st Panzer Division on about the 12th.

:[]

In the above conversation between Hitler and his Generals I found it very interesting that Hitler himself witnessed that quite often tanks in repair never re-appeared on the battlefield again and were written-off later for ever. This is something what many contemporary appologists of the Panzertruppen don't want to admit. But the FUHRER himself is witnessing. 8)

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
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Post by sniper1shot »

Hello Igorn:
I see we are still working on the one sided story here.
This is something what many contemporary appologists of the Panzertruppen don't want to admit
Who would these contemporary appologists be???

I am sure that the Soviet forces lost at least 1 tank while the German forces lost this amount.....no?
Only he is lost who gives himself up as lost.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

I don’t care. At the moment they are all gone. I hear about quick repairs everywhere, but they never come back-they always stay away. I am curious as to when they will appear again. They always say: in a short time.
No, what we see here is Adolf throwing his toys out of the playpen because for once someone has told him the real truth about tank and AFV losses, instead of the NORMAL condition, with was "massage" the truth LOL.

This is him realising the sugar-coated pill he's normally fed...is actually a bitter pill to swallow. It's nothing to do with "what many contemporary appologists of the Panzertruppen don't want to admit"..it's Hitler realising he's been bullsh1tted to. Nothing to do with contemporary views on the performance of German panzers or panzer units, but of how Hitler had to be "handled" by those around him, fed what he wanted to hear or at least in the way he wanted to hear it.
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Post by Rich »

Igorn wrote:Gents,
The strength of 7. Panzer-Division and 19. Panzer-Division as of November 1943 I couldn't find in Jentz book. Maybe somebody can provide these info.

Best Regards from Russa,
Hi Igorn,

From the OKH Dekade Reports filed by the G.I.d.Pz.Tr. Unfortunately the dates between weren't recorded. It's possible that 7. Panzer filed a Monatemeldung for November that may contain the 31 Oct strength, but I don't have a copy of it. Otherwise you will need to dig through the divisional/corps/army records to see if they recorded strengths for other days.

Hope this helps.

Einsatzbereit/Instands

7. Panzer 20 Oct 43
PzII 4/0
PzIII (l) 2/13
PzIV (l43) 2/14
PzIV (l48) 8/13
PzBef 2/2

7. Panzer 10 Nov 43:
PzII 1/3
PzIII (l) 6/9
PzIV (l43) 1/13
PzIV (l48) 9/9
PzBef 4/0

7. Panzer 10 Dec 43
PzII 0/2
PzIII (l) 2/5
PzIV (l43) 0/6
PzIV (l48) 6/18
PzBef 2/0

19. Panzer 31 Oct 43
PzIII (l) 0/6
PzIV (k) 0/2
PzIV (l48) 8/11
PzBef 0/2
PzBeob 0/1

19. Panzer 20 Nov 43
PzIII (l) 3/3
PzIV (k) 0/2
PzIV (l48) 6/13
PzBef 0/2
PzBeob 1/0

19. Panzer 30 Nov 43
PzIII (l) 2/3
PzIV (k) 0/2
PzIV (l48) 6/11
PzBef 1/1
PzBeob 0/1
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Big Units, Big Losses

Post by donwhite »

Rich,
Great post! An interesting adjunct to this thread is the observation that is expounded in the design notes of 'A bold Stroke: The Soviet Liberation of Kiev, 1943' by Jack Radey that the big units (1st Pz, 1st SS Pz Div's etc) took big losses over a short period of time. [I realise referencing a boardgame is hardly academic but the designer did claim to pore over mountainous rolls of microfilm on strength returns etc during his research, so I think its still valid to a degree] The numerically smaller units (ie:7th Pz Div) experienced comparitively more conservative losses during the same time frame - though they did have a lot less to play with! Radey's slant or biases are reasonably well known in the gaming world and though he did not specifically mention Soviet Armoured units in this observation, it is apparent that the conclusion was universally applicable to both sides. Actually I think he was specifically dismantling Von Mellenthin's Memoirs on the battles.
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Post by Igorn »

Gents,

I find also interesting Hitler's assessment of the performance of 25th Panzer Division at Zhitomir.

Meeting of the FUHRER with General Jodl and, joining later, General Zeitzler, December 28, 1943

THE FUHRER: Here the 25th Panzer Division was an absolute failure from the very first day. It was the best equipped, with the best material.
JODL: It also had very good people at the beginning.
THE FUHRER: Dietrich told me that that division had vehicle materiel, of course! He says, "If only we had that! We have run-down vehicles, and there everything came brand new from the factory." But here the guilty one is without doubt the divisional commander. He wasincapable of making anything out of this division.

:[]

But it seems that Dietrich lied to his FUHRER in order to justify failure of the LAH at Zhitomir (Dietrich told me that that division had vehicle materiel, of course! He says, "If only we had that! We have run-down vehicles, and there everything came brand new from the factory." ) since the LAH arrived to Zhitomir area in November 1943 fully refitted with brand new vehicles including 219 combat ready panzers & 37 StuG III

Panzer composition:

96 units of Pz-V (Panther) in I. SS Pz Abt
27 units of Pz-VI (Tiger) in SS Pz Rgt 1
96 units of Pz-IV in II SS Pz Rgt 1
37 units of StuG III (7.5cm) in 1/SS -StuG Abt
9 units of Sturmgeschutze 10.5 cm

And by the way on the many photographs published in Velimir Vuksic book one can see that in November 1943 the LAH's vehicles were not run-down as Dietrich was saying to Hitler but mostly brand new ones like 96 Panthers or 27 Tigers.

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
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Post by Igorn »

sniper1shot wrote: I am sure that the Soviet forces lost at least 1 tank while the German forces lost this amount.....no?
I am not disputing that the combats at Zhitomir in November-December 1943 were equally costly for the Russian tank forces. But let's not forget that at that time Germans temporarilly had advantage in tank gun power over Russians (Pz IV (lg), Pz- V, Pz-VI over T-34/76 and KV) and Manstein managed to get an impressive tank grouping including some fully refitted first-rate formations like the LAH or 1. Panzer Division to repeat his back-hand blow, defeat the forces of General Vatutin and recapture Kiev.

The result was the complete failure. :wink:

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Igor
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Post by Igorn »

Gents,

By the way Hitler was quite dissatisfied with the performance of the Field Marshal Manstein at Zhitomir:

From the stenographic record of the Meeting of the FUHRER with General Jodl and, joining later, General Zeizler, December 28, 1943

THE FUHRER: He (Manstein) recently received eight divisions. He has received three infantry divisions and five panzer divisions. So he can say that he had to give up the one. But in exchange he received another infantry division-the parachute division. So he really has received eight divisions. That fits in a barrel. He was very impressed, of course, by the unlucky fellow, Hoth, outside Kiev. We learn about this bit by bit, how devastatingly this man has worked. It has been a source of defeatism of the worst kind. There are amazing things that gradually come out. The people are just now finding the courage to report this. His quarters are very unfavorable here in this situation. He’s now sitting right near the focal point. His quarters would be better somewhere else. Vinnitsa is certainly an unfavorable place for him… He (Manstein) speaks of the “counter operation”. He should not speak of a “counter operation”, but call it by the right name: running away… Back then he had five panzer divisions: the 1st, the 14th, the 25th, the Leibstandarte and-what the fifth? The 14th was up here.
JODL: That’s the 16th [-] Here’s the 14th
THE FUHRER: The 14th came afterward?
JODL: The 14th came from the West
THE FUHRER: Yes, from the West. He just received the 1st Panzer Division from the Balkans, the 14th from the West, the 25th from the West, the 24th from Italy and the SS (LAH). So five panzer divisions and three infantry divisions plus one parachute division. So now he has received more than he originally asked for. Back then he (Manstein) asked for eight divisions. Supposedly he could manage the thing with them (at Zhitomir). He has received nine divisions-all strong, like no others on the entire front. Now he is demanding five to six divisions. He can take one out here right now. He’ll get one from here-that’s the 4th Mountain Division-he will get the 16th Panzer Division from up there, and he will take the 17th Panzer Division from here…He (Manstein) acts as if hasn’t gotten anything. His ratio of forces is still better than anywhere else on the front. The fact that some of his troops are very demoralized is related to the spirit that they absorb from above. It’s catastrophic here. We can see that we were unable to hold this line because we didn’t do necessary shifting…
BORGMANN: the 14th Panzer Division came from the West and the 24th Panzer Division from Italy at the end of July
THE FUHRER: They brought at least 700 tanks along. The Leibstandarte brought 250, the 25th Panzer Division brought about 200 as well, the 24th-
BORGMANN: Also about 150. It was in northern Italy with us in that area.
THE FUHRER: And the 1st Panzer Division?
JODL: It had less.
THE FUHRER: Just over 100. And the 14th Panzer Division?
JODL: It didn’t have any more than that either.
THE FUHRER: It had more than 150. The others were all quite full.
BORGMANN: Altogether it’s about 850.
THE FUHRER: What he (Manstein) has received since then is a multiple of that-at least 400 to 500 tanks.
BORGMANN: About 100 a month. So 3 to 4 months.
THE FUHRER: Many more came here. We also have to count assault guns. He’s received a number of assault gun detachments. A Tiger detachment has also been brought in. In that time he’s received well over 1,500 tanks… Yes, and he (Manstein) is in Vinnitsa and is worried here. He must get away quickly with his quarters. It’s useless.

:[]

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
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Post by Michate »

According to Frieser (DRZW, Vol. 8, p. 376) , XXXXVIII PzKorps had 289 operational tanks (without command tanks) and assault guns (but without opent topped SP vehicles) on 17 November 1943. Source is reports of the day at 4th PzA., BA-MA RH21-4/161, sheets 38-41.
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