Lorraine Schlepper. Indirect Fires?

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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Carl Schwamberger
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Lorraine Schlepper. Indirect Fires?

Post by Carl Schwamberger »

On Consimworld a accquaintance posted the following:

"I've been debating somewhat how to factor the several German self-propelled guns based on reworked French vehicle chasses. Specifically I'm referring to the GW LS(f) auf 10.5cm, GW LS(f) auf 15cm, GW 39H(f), GW FCM(f), and GW CharB1(f). Factoring the DF and MF is easy, but I am wondering what people think about the AF, RF, and weapon type. From the little bit I've read about them, including a little about the unique unit formed in France based on the GW LS(f) auf 15cm, and even the nomenclature of "GW" (although I do not know whether that is really what the Germans called them), I've concluded that they were not meant as SPA like Wespes or Hummels to be used as divisional artillery. Rather, they were more like assault guns like GW 1 and GW 38."

Can any experts explain how these vehicals were used for fire support, and if they were used with indirect fire techniques.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Buried away in the Wiki article on the H35/38/39 family the the 39H variation at least is mentioned VERY briefly -
In 1942 24 were converted into a Marder I Panzerjäger or tank destroyer, the 7,5cm PaK40(Sf) auf Geschützwagen 39H(f) and 48 into mechanised artillery, the 10,5cm leFH18(Sf) auf Geschützwagen 39H(f), all to be used by units in France
Here at least - and yes, I know it's Wiki LOL - these variations are referred to as "mechanised artillery" but the FCM variation is however more clearly referred to as SPA -
Twelve were in 1942 rebuilt as self-propelled artillery, the 10.5cm leFH 16/18(Sf) auf Geschutzwagen FCM (f).
In the Lorraine 37L entry, however, there's something different - a good quality picture of a GW LS(f) auf 15cm at Aberdeen - and the armour isn't that thick, only splinter and smallarms'-proof.

________________________________________________________


Achtungpanzer also refers to them as "howitzer carriers" as a translation of Geschutzwagen - emphasis on the word "carrier" - but that translation isn't the best I've seen. Take a look at tthis page -
...and at the bottom of the first three sections you'll find them named as specifically howitzer-equiped variations of the far more common PaK-armed Marder assault gun conversions.

I would go for howitzer SPA and not assault gun as a definition, and thus indirect fire?


(As for the GW CharB1(f), only 16 were converted, and I thought regarded as a top-heavy failure. Nevertheless, I've seen them referred to again as SPA...and nothing with a silhouette THAT tall is going to be safe actually ON the battlefield!)
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Carl Schwamberger
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Post by Carl Schwamberger »

Thanks, thats very usefull. If James has some photographs of these weapons in battle the presence of IF gun sights would further confirm this. A account by a Wehrmacht artilleryman would be good evidence too.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

If someone even had a good pic of the gun installation, it's VERY possible its original French howitzer sights would still be in place. If it returns complete, there's pics in a puzzle on AHF one of these conversions IIRC, a German howitzer on a Skoda T-38 hull - that still has the WHEELS on the gun LMAO If all they are is a howitzer that moves itself...I can't see any real reason to go to the EXTRA effort of fitting German-manufactured sights/opticals unless there was something VERY wrong with the originals. After all, the ONLY difference is...the "gun" is now 7 feet off the ground!!! It's still playing a howitzer's role, and it's not as if it was going to be firing some greatly-improved and uprated ammo type.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Now that the front end of AHF is back up, the numbers produced of some others of this reange of vehicles was similarly small; only 24 10.5cm leFH18 auf Geschützwagen Lorraine, 48 10.5cm leFH16 auf Geschützwagen FCM...although AHF has 18 10.5cm leFH18/3 auf Geschützwagen B2(f) (the Char B1bis conversion, not 16.

Only the 15cm Lorraine conversion was in any numbers, with 107 produced.

Although the next bit of the article concentrates on tank re-usage, it DOES have this
107x converted Lorraine tractors with 15cm (102), 10.5cm (24) or 12.2cm (r) (1 vehicle on an armored train) howitzers and used as SP artillery in the PzDs before the arrival of the Wespe and Hummel SP howitzers
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Post by Carl Schwamberger »

Yet more circumstantial evidence. Still supporting my earlier interpretation that these were used for indirect fires. Not as good as statements from a German artilleryman from a LS battery tho.

As for leaving the oritginal sights on the gun, that depends on how different French methods were and if it were more cost effective to change over the sights, or retrain the gunners. I'm not familar enough with either German or French gunsights to judge that one.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Carl, this far down the years, getting a user report from something as limited in application as those is going to be difficult :( Nor are artillerymen noted for memoirs in any army, for some reason.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Maybe its the...

"Are you going to write your memoirs?"
"WHAT?"
"Are you going to write your memoirs?"
"WHAT?"

...artillery problem! :D :D :D
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Ooooh the wonders of tangental thinking! It's only a model, but look at THIS
See the overhang and the deployable backstop??? No way is this an assault gun!

P.S. the Aberdeen LS doesn't have the backstop...but it DOES have the brackets for it! :wink:
Last edited by phylo_roadking on Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

BINGO!

Carl, take a look at THIS - U.S. War Department Technical Manual, TM-E 30-451: Handbook on German Military Forces published in March 1945
Both the 10.5 and 15cm Lorraine-based guns are definitely described as
FIELD AND MEDIUM SELF-PROPELLED ARTILLERY


and in the main manual -
(2) Field and medium self-propelled artillery. Field and medium self-propelled artillery was introduced first about the middle of 1942. Both types of howitzers (10.5 cm le F. H. 18 and 15 cm s. F. H. 18 ) in the division artillery now may be found on self-propelled chassis.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

However, this is things start to go awry, for the GW 39H(f) seems definitely to be an ASSAULT gun! I've come across two wargames sites referring to it as an assault gun, andf the U.S. manual says the difference between the two is that assault guns had the gun sited in the middle of the chassis, not the rear, so that they crew could serve it standing on the floor of the vehicle, not on a rear mounted platform. And THAT definitely describes the GW 39H!!!

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=564

...is the best, with a bit of historical detail.

for good line drawings of it and the FCM...

http://books.google.com/books?id=eoqVX1 ... E#PPA86,M1

However, NOTE the info accompanying the 39H variant - BOTH panzerartillerie AND assault guns at different times in the 39H's history!
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Okay, here's the plot -

The Lorraine conversions are definitely self-propelled artillery, and were called such by the U.S. Army :wink: And was by far the most numerous of the group.

The 39H and FCM conversions seem originally to have been similarly Panzerartillerie - but beginning on D-Day and immediately after fought as assault guns, and their planform meets the U.S. Army description of assault guns. But their numbers make them almost ephemeral - if it wasn't for their high-profile role in Normandy.

The CharB1 conversions seem only to have been referred to as SPA, same as the Lorraine Schleppers, but as there were only 16 (or 18!) didn't make it into any manuals LOL let alone any pics or drawings on the Net!!!
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Post by phylo_roadking »

...then suddenly I find THIS...etched brass conversion kit for Matchbox/Revell 1/72nd scale Char B1bis...


Image

UGLEE! And no way is that an assault gun LOL
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Post by Carl Schwamberger »

Damm PR. Dont you have a day job or something? Way too much time for looking things up. Hope james is able to make good use of this info.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Insomnia is a wonderful aid to research LOL
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