The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

[phylo_roadking]

Because by then we were back to a pure recce role, not an attempt to make one AFV of whatever class do two or more jobs. Reconnaisance was vastly more important during the Cold War in preparation for the Hot one, because by then too, the Nato forces in West Germany etc., were facing a unified, all-arms Russian and Warsaw Pact enemy; no more preponderance of tanks and SPGs, towed artillery and trucked (at best ) infantry, now they were facing an entire gamut of AFVs of many different types and roles, an entire mobile army with its own logistics and supply. The "intended" war was one of removing the Warsaw Pact's MBTs in as great a quantity as possible, in whatever way possible - therefore for the Bundeswehr, fighting on home territory, they at least envisioned a "three dimensional" war where their foces operating fast and semi-covert behind the always-fluid Warsaw Pact front line would be as valuable as playing their part in the main NATO battle line. The West Germans always looked upon the whole of West Germany as their prospective battlefield, including the "temporarily" occupied parts, and intended to fight a fastmoving, fluid hit and run war behind the main echelons. A recce or light AFV, carrying a large amount of its dedicated ammo, can stay in the field seeking its own weight of target far longer than an MBT without resupply, apart from stopping at a wrecked or otherwise commercial filling station!

[Tom Houlihan]

That makes sense. Back to a strictly reconnaissance role. Works for me!

[Commissar D, the Evil]

A recce or light AFV, carrying a large amount of its dedicated ammo, can stay in the field seeking its own weight of target far longer than an MBT without resupply, apart from stopping at a wrecked or otherwise commercial filling station!

Very true! Nice post Phylo! What is interesting to me is that the Germans never forgot the shortages of fuel in WWII and their recce armored cars continued the tradition of having very long range on their internal fuel supplies. Compare that to the U.S., which never developed a successfull vehicle purely dedicated to reconnaisance. U.S. Army scouts in the Cold War were sort of the step-children of the army and their TO&Es changed with uncommon rapidity, as did their mounts.

Oddly, it took the U.S. Marines to bring the 8-wheeled armored car into the U.S. inventory.

But, I digress. Armored Recce is a fascinating subject. I think that the Germans in WWII were clearly on the right path and the 234 series was probably their best effort at fielding a decent armored car for reconnaisance. I've posted in the past on the theoretical advantages of the Luchs recon tank as opposed to the 234 series and I think the jury is still out on that question. But it is all a very interesting subject.

Vey Best,
David

[phylo_roadking]

Another thing to remember is that the recce/light AFV over-gunned to make a tank-killer...supposedly...was something that died out of ALL armies by the mid '70s. The lovely British Saladin armoured car went, the US Sheridan light tank was a non-starter really; all replaced by two or three guys and a car boot-full of Milan, or TOW. Modern non-MBT tank-killers are really only infantry vehicles mounting ATGWs, or are designed equally to carry bodies as well as weapons. Something like the 234/4 was redundant the minute really good man-portable ATGWs arrived; cos whether a long barrelled gun or a Milan/TOW, theyre all line-of-sight weapons, you have to be able to see the target to guide your weapon either at point of firing or in flight. Range nearly doesnt matter. So what do you do - upgun a perfectly good recce vehicle again?....or produce something cheaper that can carry two or even three AT teams....

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Phylo! I understand the desperation of German forces in the late war to field as many anti-tank vehicles as possible.

But, if the situation were less hopeless, it strikes me that a good reconnaisance vehicle would have as little to do with tangling with enemy tanks as possible. Looking at WWII, I've reached a few conclusions and ask what you think about them.

Am I incorrect in assuming that reconnaisance crews underwent a highly specialized training and weren't easily replacable? Am I incorrect in believing that a proper recce vehicle should be fast, light, mobile and equipped with the best communications devices?

These considerations would seem to dictate that the vehicle be neither designed to kill tanks (the weight and equipment issues) not tasked with killing tanks. My humble opinion is that the purpose of a reconnaisance vehicle is to gather information discretely and have minimal contact with the enemy.

Assuming that my viewpoint is correct for the time period up to mid-1944, which German armored car or light tank, including the 4-wheeled series, was best suited for the purpose?

Best Regards,
David

[Tom Houlihan]

David, there are a lot of issues with that question.

For purely recon purposes, a light vehicle, lightly armed, with excellent comm gear is the ideal. But, one has to recognize that one vehicle isn't going to work in all terrain. Not even the venerated jeep can handle that. So, a mix of tires and tracks is going to be required.

In a perfect world, your recce elements are going to come home with the same amount of ammo they left with, period. Their primary weapon is supposed to be the Mk. I Eyeball. Reality however, bitch that she is, means that eventually those recce elements are going to fall into a situation where they don't want to be, requiring them to fight their way out. So now we can see where having a couple of heavier guns becomes nice.

One of the problems the Germans faced was that in many situations, every man that could fight had to man the line. With the Aufklarungs Abteilungen (I know, I skipped the umlaut!), these men were already combat trained, armed, vehicled, and much more capable than the men culled from the Trossen. As these units were seeing a lot more direct combat than their planned mission called for, they needed the heavier guns. So, even though the Germans had developed a great weapon in their A.A., they weren't being used as envisioned.

That's just a quick off the cuff job, there. Far from a Phylo analysis, but I think I made some sense. I guess it boils down to the 234 series, the various 4-wheelers, and the Luchs all contributed to the mission, just in different ways.

[Commissar D, the Evil]

In a perfect world, your recce elements are going to come home with the same amount of ammo they left with, period. Their primary weapon is supposed to be the Mk. I Eyeball. Reality however, bitch that she is, means that eventually those recce elements are going to fall into a situation where they don't want to be, requiring them to fight their way out. So now we can see where having a couple of heavier guns becomes nice.

Yes Tom, of course you are right. I have very much to learn about the concept of armored scouts. There are so many things I don't understand (Hell, about life in general, much less Panzer Aufklarung Abts.!!! )

Well, putting aside life in general...... One of the things I can't quite get a grip on is that 9th Panzer lost all of its Lynx in the Normandy campaign in a relatively short time. On the other hand, 4th Panzer, fighting the Russians in Prussia held on to theirs until nearly the end of the campaign.

Sorry I seem to be a little unfocused on this subject, but I haven't run across any accounts of 234 series or Luchs crewmen to get an idea of what their experiences were. This makes it much harder to put the vehices into perspective.

Very Best,
David

[Tom Houlihan]

Sorry I seem to be a little unfocused on this subject, but I haven't run across any accounts of 234 series or Luchs crewmen to get an idea of what their experiences were. This makes it much harder to put the vehices into perspective.

Okay, are our Deutsche Kameraden aware of any writings from Pz.A.A. men? Reading their words would clear up a lot!

What manner of writings are there (hopefully in English) about the concept, design, and tactics of the Pz.A.A.? That would help, too.

Just for my own edification, let me check out what Christoph has by way of KStNs...

Odd, I just scanned through quickly, just looking for Pz.A.A., but I didn't see a single Luchs, or Puma! It may take a little more looking, or he just may not have up there the ones that I actually need for this question.

Interesting...

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Tom, Christoph has it all up there. For instance, the Lynx is KStN 1162b. Problem is that the Pz.A.A., used a number of combinations of KStNs.

But, you're really right, I'd love to hear what our German-speaking members say is available in terms of Pz.A.A. crew accounts and memoirs!!!!!!

It would help an awful lot!

Very Best,
David

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Oh, this is relevant here, check out a thread on the 4th Pz. A.A., with very useful information by Prit Buttar, Christoph Awender, Hans Weber and Martin Block--truly a galaxy of stars!!!

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 00&start=0

Really wonderful stuff and the type of Thread that makes Feldgrau what it is!

Very Best,
David

[phylo_roadking]

Hi all. You have to remember its very often "horses for courses" Reconnaisance is very often NOT just a case of dashing out, finding the enemy and dashing back; after all, thats what radios are for LOL. Recce of the nature we're talking about here is mor to find where the enemy ISN'T - in an ideal world low-level airborne tactical recce will tell you where tanks and the like are; recce is probing to find open roads and lighter screening forces, so that you can mintain your advance in a fast-moving theatre where you ideally want to chop your enemy into bite-sized bits or surround him, classic Blitzkrieg.

Thats why you have SUCH a variety of vehicles used during the war period; my faves are the light, and from a late war perspective almost-useless lighter armoured cars from the first couple of years of the war. Tom, the idea of a perfect recce vehicle having excellent comms gear falls down here when you realise how FEW recce vehicles were radio-equiped in those days....yet fast-moving recce elements were the stars of Poland and France, and to an extent the Western Desert.

Very often, armoured or light AFVs in the recce role were - and still are - used to "pin" enemy forces in position until the not actually too much slower light and medium panzers come up behind you. Because its the constantly dismounting-trenchdigging-remounting enemy infantry you want these elements to tangle with at junctions, river crossings etc. and hold them so they can be removed from the equation, not run away to fight you another day. Hence armoured recce, and not just piddling about the country on motorcycle combinations! LOL

Also, you have to remember that armoured recce is usually AT MOST two or three miles ahead of your advancing armour; when the panzers advance to contact, your armoured recce vehicles are usually still entangled in the fight for a bit.....and usually against light screening forces like themselves.

IF its the case that your AA squadron dashes forward, turns a bend in the road and reverses quickly from a column of mixed armour, then drive straight to the local army cooperation airfield and start shooting pilots, because THEYVE failed you big time!

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Another nice post Phylo, it helps a lot! Thanks!


Best,
David

[phylo_roadking]

Dave, also remember the other thread about diesel engines LOL by the last year of the war the Russians just didnt use recce forces in the classical sense; they were rarely out of touch with the enemy, could trundle over him at contact, support artillery was only a few minutes' call away, and the Germans were more often trying to throw up static defences where those recce forces as discussed beofre WERE used in their classic role, they found they just weren't encountering their equivalent. Why build five recce armoured cars when your factories in the Urals could turn out five more T34/85s? Which was more useful when you KNEW where your enemy was? they were the ones firing panzerfausts at you! LOL The Russians probed rather than scouted, the only difference being how fast a probe can become a thrust.

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Ah Phylo, with respect, we've differed about the nature of the fighting in Prussia durng the early months of the Prussian campaign. I still maintain that the German Pz, A.A. forces were a major factor and I think this view is born out by the survival of Pz. A.A. 4 until the end of the campaign. If you were correct, Pz. A.A. 4 woud have been obliterated during the early weeks of the campaign, but that was not the case, even though they were tasked with defensive operations not really suited to their equipment.

But, it is well to have differences in the interpretation of historical events.

Very best,
David

[phylo_roadking]

Dave, nope - youve just expressed my point in another way LOL if theyd been used in a "standard" recce role they WOULD have been decimated - because theyd have run up against what the Russians "called" reconnaisance, probing in strength. Acting in a more defensive tho still mobile role they lasted far longer than they would have. Don't forget, its the role of armoured recce to be "wasted", to run up against screening forces etc and pin them...and in this environmenth had they done that as normal theyd have been trundled over. SO tho armour they were not, using them as such preserved the unit's active life!