The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil »

All are good questions Phylo, I'll see what I can dig up. Be nice to know what units were issued this armored car variant.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by phylo_roadking »

Came across this, but just on a modeller's page.
The overwhelming majority of the 88 completed Sd.Kfz.234/3 served with the 116th Panzer Division
...in Normandy.
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

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Just found this on a Flames of War site...
Schwere Panzerspähwagen (2cm) (Sd Kfz 234/1) or (5cm) (Sd Kfz 234/2)

The Sd Kfz 234 was designed as a replacement to the earlier Sd Kfz 231 and 232 eight-wheeled armoured cars.

The Sd Kfz 234/1 was fitted with a 2cm KwK 38 L/55 gun and co-ax 7.92mm MG34 machine gun in a six-sided open turret similar to that fitted to the Sd Kfz 222. The open turret was protected from grenades by a mesh-covered frame turret covers. 200 of this variant were produced from June 1944.

The Sd Kfz 234/2 "Puma” was the first variant produced and was armed with a 5cm KwK 39/1 L/60 and co-ax 7.92mm MG in a fully enclosed turret. It weighed 11.74 tons. Its gun could sometimes get the crew into trouble, the crew being tempted to engage the enemy rather than breaking off. 101 were produced.

Production began in September 1943 and was halted in September 1944 when it was replaced by the other variants (Sd Kfz 234/1 2cm, Sd Kfz 234/3 7.5cm KwK, and Sd Kfz 234/4 7.5cm PaK40).
This me be me nitpicking - but am I wrong in reading this as saying the Schwere Panzerspähwagen (2cm) Sd Kfz 234/1 is different to a Schwere Panzerspähwagen Sd Kfz 234/1 2cm? :wink:
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by phylo_roadking »

Found this little gem;

http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/reach ... kfz234.htm

Note this - "Very few SdKfz. 234/1 were rearmed with a 20mm Flak 38 L/112.5. They were known as
"schwerer Panzerspähwagen (2cm Flak 38) - Schwebelafette". "

It's a pity that they don't give their sources - but at least "they" think it's a 234/1 variant, not a 234/3.
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by phylo_roadking »

AHA!

The one the US intelligence officer got to inspect was captured with a number of 234/3s and 234/2s in Pilsen on the 9th May 1945. It seems to have been with Stabskp./Pz.Aufkl.Abt.20 of 20.Panzer-Division.
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by phylo_roadking »

And found THIS -

Image

I presume the said Pilsen Sd kfz 234/1 w 2cm Schwebelafette.
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil »

Well Phylo, personally I'm not completely convinced that this variant wasn't a field modification............
There just doesn't seem to be enough photographic or documentary evidence to support the idea that more than handful existed.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

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In this case...that might depend on what you call "field". More likely a satellite factory in Hungary or Czechoslovakia finding itself with a number of hulls and no weapons...

What else was the Flak 38 schwebelafette installation used for?
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil »

What else was the Flak 38 schwebelafette installation used for?
This installation was used on a variant of the Sd. Kfz. 251, the 251/17 Ausf. D w/2cm Schwebelafette, introduced in 1944.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

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Yep, have come across the /17 lots in the last few hours. The pedestal mount idea is the same, but the pics of that I've seen seem to have an open splash-shield, not the all enclosed idea of the 234/1. I'm also guessing at flak barges and towers...
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil »

IMHO, the schwebelafette variant of the 234 only makes sense if either the factories ran out of the normal 2 cm Hängelafette--for which we have no real evidence--or if it was used to replace the armament in damaged 234/2's, 3's or 4's. Looking at the schebelafette, one wonders where exactly the 234 vehicle commander was stationed, a rather crucial consideration for an armored scout. The schebelafette looks to certainly be a less than suitable alternative to the normal Hängelafette in terms of crew accommodation.

The hangelafette seems to have been in use since the 250/9 in 1943.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

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a rather crucial consideration for an armored scout.
...yes, but remember, single vehicles wouldn't have been working individually. Remember, the Pilsen one was captured with a number of others.
or if it was used to replace the armament in damaged 234/2's, 3's or 4's.
I can't see this happening, not at a depot, as it's a BIG conversion to take on to do just that. First of all, you actually have to get your hands on a Flak 38/schwebelafette installation...then I presume strengthen the decking in the hull for NOW the armament is mounted there (only the 234/4 Stummel will IIRC have its armament deck mounted, and it was "current issue" so I'd assume spares were available for IT) So that means LIFTING the decking, welding in bracing, relaying the decking or fab'ing up stronger decking, then installing the pedestal. Then you ALSO have to rebuild the ammunition storage, as well as actually get your hands on ammunition and clips...I don't think the Flak 30/38 family fired the same round as the KwK 38 L/55.

Going back to the very start of that...actually getting hold of a quantity of Flack 38/schwebelafette installations and ancillaries is going to be a decision taken relatively far up the supply chain. I know the Germans loved conversions like this - but someone up the line had to okay them if they mean rerouting arms and ammunition, and ensuring there's a supply of same to their units.
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

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I disagree with this. All it really takes is a 234/2 with a hopelessly damaged turret and a 251 with a damaged hull but intact schwebelafette. Welding takes care of the rest and I can't see any reason the floor of the 234 would have to be strengthened, as the hull of the 234 was a structural part of the vehicle, that is, not an addition to the girders, steering mechanism and undercarriage of the earlier 232-233 series. It's not a huge conversion, you're simply mounting a pedestal mounted gun on an empty floor space.

Again though, in this modification, where is the vehicle commander's station? To me, that alone is an obvious sign of a field modification designed to return a combat-damaged vehicle to service. And look at the relative clumsy and unsophisticated fabrication of the schwebelafette. From a purely visual evaluation, it just doesn't look like a factory-build mount intended for the 234 chassis.

Historically, what evidence is there that this modification was widespread or an actual part of the 234/1 programme? All we have is a handful of pictures, many of which come from the same sources.

Compare the craftsmanship of the schweblaffete with this picture:

Image

The 20 mm gun was in the German arsenal from the beginning of the war. I don't think that anyone in high command would have argued that any variant of it couldn't or shouldn't be used as necessary, it simply wasn't rare enough and didn't demand ammunition that wasn't in the supply chain. So why would anyone above divisional level even care if a stray 20mm mount found its way on to a 234 chassis, especially if it turned a disabled vehicle into a useful one?

In Vietnam, you'd be surprised how many non-sanctioned M-113's carried "illegitimate and non-authorized " armament ranging from a 106 recoilless rifle to a minigun or an automatic grenade launcher. Never underestimate field repair shops and their willingness to break the so-called rules.....

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

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All it really takes is a 234/2 with a hopelessly damaged turret and a 251 with a damaged hull but intact schwebelafette. Welding takes care of the rest and I can't see any reason the floor of the 234 would have to be strengthened, as the hull of the 234 was a structural part of the vehicle, that is, not an addition to the girders, steering mechanism and undercarriage of the earlier 232-233 series. It's not a huge conversion, you're simply mounting a pedestal mounted gun on an empty floor space.
Problem...look at the 234/1 schwebelafette pic... see the allround shield? I've at last turned up a pic of the 251/17 schwebelafette...

Image

...no shield. It's NOT a 251/17 installation cut from a mangled /17 and welded in...and incidently the number of 251/17 w schwebelafette seems to be equally as small and unidentifiable! The flakvierling /17 is far more common.

As for WHERE the commander/observer sits...you can see it in the pic! And here...

Image

On the seat, with his head up in the shield! Yes it's quite cramped...but they were built so that's where he sat to use the gun! Now, all we DON'T have is a FRONT view, there must be a big cutout anyway for the gun. The commander has potentially as much room there as he does in the 234/4 with it's MUCH larger gun installation.

Image
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil »

I disagree. First, the photo of the 251 has been widely identified as that of a 251 mounting a discarded Luftwaffe 20mm gun, not a schwebelafette--as you said, no armor is visible. I believe this photo came from Panzerkorps Herman Goering and is irrelevant to the discussion. It's definitely not a photo of a 251/17 as the series of photos in that book proves. There is absolutely no armor around the gun.

Also, if you look at the real schwebelafette, you'll see only one seat, presumably for the gunner! So where was the 234 vehicle commander's station?

The seat in the photo of the schwebelaffete is obviously for the gunner. Note its low height, which would only be useful only if the gunner did indeed have to fire at 90 degrees elevation--it wouldn't have served a 234.1 commander at all, since he was the eyes and ears of the scouting mission.

Getting back to my point, a Puma with a seriously damaged turret would have been useless, as these turrets were in very short supply, unlike the hanglafette. It would have made perfect sense to take the turret off and, as long as the chassis was undamaged, replace the turret with a jury-rigged 20mm gun in a simplistic mount. Same if a 234/3 had its main armament disabled. Wield a pedestal mounted 20mm gun to the chassis and you still have an armored scouting vehicle that was not too inferior to a 234/1. Also, it goes without saying that the 234/1 variant of the 234 series received priority over all other 234 variants in manufacture due to its niche in what the Germans wanted out of a scout vehicle. Note that even the tracked Luchs carried the same armament, as did the 250/9.

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David
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