Need Info about Nashorn Panzers of the 2./Schw.Pz.Jg.519

[NemoLebowski]

Hello all,

Iam looking to gather any information and photos concerning Nashorn Panzers of the 2./Schw.Pz.Jg.519. My Grandfater Freidrich Wilhelo Otto was an Oberfeldwebel in thsi division and I am doing some research on him for myself. I have several pictures of him and all of his medals and some documents. If anyone is interested in digital copies of these items, I offer them free to all interested parties!

Thanks for all the help.

Steve

[Matt L]

Hi Steve,

Well, I can tell you that one of the more famous Panzerjäger 'aces' of the war, Ritterkreuzträger Hauptmann Albert Ernst, served in the same unit as your Grandfather, although Ernst commanded the 1. Kompanie. JJ Fedorowicz Publishing published a book by Franz Kurowski called "Panzer Aces" in which his story is told. You can read a tiny bit of it here: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz2.htm.

Here's the reference data I have on the unit:

schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 519 (Hornisse)

1. Creation

25.8.1943 in Spremberg, Wehrkreis III, with 3 companies (plus a staff company); reorganized on 15.9.1944 as schwere-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 519 (Panther) in Mielau, Wehrkreis I, and re-equipped with the Jagdpanther.

2. Employment:

Heerestruppe: Russia; transferred to Heeresgruppe B (Western Front) 10. 1944.

3. Replacements

43 Spremberg, Wehrkreis III


This image is supposed to be a Hornisse/Nashorn of sPzJägAbt 519: http://klub.chip.pl/krzemek/nashorn/nashorn_13d.jpg

You can even build a model of a Nashorn from your Grandfather's unit: http://pmms.webace.com.au/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6166.htm I actually did

They apparently fought with the 6. Luftwaffe Feld-Division in late 1943, early 1944 http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Article.asp?ArticleID=510, and they were attached to the 9. SS-Panzer-Division (II. SS-Panzer-Korps) for Unternehmen 'Wacht am Rhein' (the proper name for what the western Allies called the Ardennes Offensive)- http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=629. I read elsewhere that this is where the unit employed 7 Jagdpanthers, although I don't know how these were distributed among the Kompanien.

I hope this helps.

Matt

[Patrick]

On a side note, can anyone comment on the relative success of the Nashorn?

In a defensive role, I imagine it could engage targets successfully at long range, but its tall superstructure and thin armour must have made it terribly vulnerable.

[Matt L]

You're right on both counts Patrick. Of course I say that having really only read the story of Albert Ernst, however I'd expect it to be typical of the experiences of a Hornisse/Nashorn crew.

The 8,8cm Pak 43 L/71 was a very long-range weapon, and I've read it stated that T34s could be destroyed at in excess of 4000m (one report is that in autumn 1944, an Elefant of schweren-Heeres-Panzerjäger Kompanie 614 knocked-out a T34 at 4500m). The Hornisse/Nashorn used exactly the same gun and sight (Slf.ZF1a1). One of Ernst's most famous 'exploits' was the destruction of 14 Soviet tanks with only 21 rounds on Christmas Eve, 1943. His 1. Kompanie destroyed a total of 30 tanks in that engagement.

The very high silhouette was indeed a disadvantage, although because the gun was relatively high, in a hull-down positioin, the vehicle was quite well protected (I have a picture of this someplace). The armor was really only intended to protect the gun crew from small arms fire and shell splinters. The open top, although advantageous for operating the gun (rounds for which were 1.12m long) and observing the battlefield, made the crew vulnerable to close-in infantry attacks.

Again on the plus side, the vehicle was based on the PanzerIV chassis, a proven design that was reliable and mobile.

It's my understanding that the Hornisse/Nashorn was mainly a stopgap vehicle- created to fill a need until more heavily armored vehicles could be designed and produced (e.g., the Jagdpanther), although its effectiveness was recognized as about 500 were produced between February 1943 and March 1945.

Just a little factoid- at the beginning of 1944, it was decided that insect names (e.g., Hummel- bumblebee, Grille- cricket) were to be used only for self-propelled artillery vehicles, so the Hornisse (hornet) had its name changed to Nashorn (rhinoceros)- certainly an appropriate name.

Matt

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi,

Firing at 4000m on a target involved that the shell had a ballistic trajectory. is it possible that the shell hit the tank not on the front armor but on the topside where the armor was very thin ?

So long.

[Patrick]

Just a little factoid- at the beginning of 1944, it was decided that insect names (e.g., Hummel- bumblebee, Grille- cricket) were to be used only for self-propelled artillery vehicles, so the Hornisse (hornet) had its name changed to Nashorn (rhinoceros)- certainly an appropriate name.

Matt,

Thanks for the factoid! Time for yet another side note that your reply made me wonder about - how exactly does the word "Marder" translate?

[SvenW]

Marder = marten.

[Matt L]

I wouldn't think so Dackel- the aim point would still be the target's center of mass, and that's what the sight would aim the gun to hit. Not only that, but it was a high-velocity gun (vo=1000m/s) so the elevation to hit a target at 4000m, wouldn't be that high- only about 1.12-degrees (so the downward angle on impact would be about -1.12-degrees).

Matt

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi Matt,

Do you have the speed of the shell each 500m from the start until 4500m ?

So long.

[Matt L]

No Dackel- it's just a rough calculation not taking into account air resistance or anything like that, so the angle I mention is simply based on the vo.

Matt

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi Matt,

I knew it, the germans had only one speed shell controller and the guy who was in charge of it was too slow for taking several measures Run, Forrest..
To know the speed it's maybe useful to compare guns. One can have a bigger gauge but the speed shell at 1500m can be slower than the one with a smaller gauge. because you are smart you understand I was talking about the 88mm and the 122mm.
Anyway Thanks.

So long.

[Matt L]

Yeah, probably

Seriously though, I've only ever seen vo numbers for weapons anywhere- it's the only speed that is relatively constant, and necessary for any calculations one who is physics-minded (not me!) might want to do. After a projectile leaves the barrel of a gun it is subject to all kinds of things that affect its speed- wind is a big one, and then there's air density, humidity, temperature, and so on. It's my understanding that modern artillery computers actually take the earth's rotation into account!

Matt

[Kelvin]

Hi Steve,

Well, I can tell you that one of the more famous Panzerjäger 'aces' of the war, Ritterkreuzträger Hauptmann Albert Ernst, served in the same unit as your Grandfather, although Ernst commanded the 1. Kompanie. JJ Fedorowicz Publishing published a book by Franz Kurowski called "Panzer Aces" in which his story is told. You can read a tiny bit of it here: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz2.htm.

Here's the reference data I have on the unit:

schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 519 (Hornisse)

1. Creation

25.8.1943 in Spremberg, Wehrkreis III, with 3 companies (plus a staff company); reorganized on 15.9.1944 as schwere-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 519 (Panther) in Mielau, Wehrkreis I, and re-equipped with the Jagdpanther.

2. Employment:

Heerestruppe: Russia; transferred to Heeresgruppe B (Western Front) 10. 1944.

3. Replacements

43 Spremberg, Wehrkreis III


This image is supposed to be a Hornisse/Nashorn of sPzJägAbt 519: http://klub.chip.pl/krzemek/nashorn/nashorn_13d.jpg

You can even build a model of a Nashorn from your Grandfather's unit: http://pmms.webace.com.au/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6166.htm I actually did

They apparently fought with the 6. Luftwaffe Feld-Division in late 1943, early 1944 http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Article.asp?ArticleID=510, and they were attached to the 9. SS-Panzer-Division (II. SS-Panzer-Korps) for Unternehmen 'Wacht am Rhein' (the proper name for what the western Allies called the Ardennes Offensive)- http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=629. I read elsewhere that this is where the unit employed 7 Jagdpanthers, although I don't know how these were distributed among the Kompanien.

I hope this helps.

Matt

Did 519.schwere panzerjager abteilung being destroyed in the Eastern Front and rebuilt before transfering to the West ?