Copying/posting book material

German SS and Waffen-SS 1923-1945.

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Copying/posting book material

Postby Mark C Yerger » Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:32 pm

Be aware books are copyrighted. If you copy and post pages from published books I will notify the author you've done so. Be aware if you do you are making yourself open to legal action. Crediting the source does not constitute permission by the author to have his material scanned and posted on the Internet (text or illustration pages). There are obviously a few who need reminded, or sued, since they lack the common sense or logic to know this (or don't care) as well as lacking the IQ to know the costs and time involved with writing a text. The same goes for the catagory of people who write authors asking them to Xerox pages they want (without offering to pay costs) instead of buying a book.

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Author's Copyrights

Postby John P. Moore » Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:32 pm

I sincerely applaud Mark Yerger for taking this strong position against those people who violate copyright laws. I too have been troubled by the frequent posts in this forum and others where scans or copies of another author`s work was requested. Most authors of books on the Waffen-SS are not independently wealthy and we need to support their hard work and sacrifice by purchasing their books and not stealing from them. I highly recommend the books of Mark Yerger. They are without equal.
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Postby Jason Pipes » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:34 pm

Gentlemen, I whole-heartedly agree with your suggestions, but I also would strongly suggest that other than instances of someone copying entire books and offering them up, there is nothing wrong with those that make copies of a few pages for non-profit research work, for ones self or a few limited others. If that were not the case, why are copy machines at libraries? I would also suggest that often times seeing copies of a few pages of a book has lead me to the actual purchase of a book in full because I had solid basis for it's merit versus buying it sight-unseen.

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Postby Mark C Yerger » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:59 pm

To discuss or describe a book is fine for a review or comment. Copyrights in any book or CD format state reproduction by any means (electronich, etc) without the permission of the author is a copyright violation. Short quotes for reviews are acceptable, sites posting dozens of private owned photos are far being used for that purpose. Posting photos from books for free distribution falls well within the topic of copyright infringement. Personally, I'm rather tired of my own material, initially stated as copied for "personal use," showing up in someone else's books. If someone feels it is acceptable, why not ASK the author ? If they reply no the solution is simple: find your own material and write your own book. I've initiated legal action against one such individual. The time and effort to compile a book, aside from gather material, is not worth giving away to the owner of a scanner or similar equipment.

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Copyrights

Postby John P. Moore » Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:26 pm

Jason, I could not agree with you less. The fact that copy machines are to be found in libraries does not grant a license to violate a copyright law. Too many people are too cheap or unethical to pay for what they want when they can steal it. It is the same thing with music and Napster-type schemes. It is against the law and there are consequences when you are caught.
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Postby Jason Pipes » Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:08 am

Gentlemen, thanks for the continued excellent comments. Let me suggest another take - one who makes limited copies soley for personal use is not the same as one who makes copies with the intent to profit from them in some way, especially in republishing that material, either in print or online.

I find it hard to believe that neither of you gentlemen have copies of pages of books in your vast collections of materials.

As a side-note, I feel this pain everyday as I find my work stolen and used in print and online all the time. It's frustrating and annoying and upsetting. I can imagine it's more so after going through the extra steps to have published something in print. But I also don't feel the person who copies a few pages in a book for their own personal reference is the same as the person who copies that material for use directly online or in print.
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Postby Kimmo » Sat Apr 19, 2003 1:41 am

Maybe I'm bit off from the topic with this comment, but when you write something, be it online or as a printed version, you need to find a reference from other books.

I have always said and thought, that if you take reference to your own work, from more than a one book, you can claim that text to be your own.

But if you go and just copy information from one book, you cannot claim that it's your own work and that would constitute as a copyright violation.

But when the information has been gathered from many books or other sources, I think that it's a original work of yours and not a violation of copyright laws.

This is just the way I have believed to be the case with online publishing. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong when believing like this, but if you cannot collect information anywhere, without people saying you a stealer, then how are we suppose to produce any new material?

I mean one book can contain useful information, but there's not that much of it. Then you take ten books that are the same, useful information, but not much of it. You go and combain all of them, of course leaving something out, shaping the information and you have created something new?

Or am I wrong?
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Violation vs. reasearch

Postby Chris » Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:16 am

Discussion on copyrights etc.

For a start I would like to say, that I am in total agreement that there is a thing called copyright, wich basicly says that you are not allowed to make money or exploit other peoples writing, Photographic material (Amateur photogaphs, by individual soldiers), artworks (Paintings, and War-correspondent photos etc.) and soforth. (I will not here, unless anyone wants it, go into the finer detailes of Photographic copyright rules, just note that, many books, (relating to Waffen-SS), are not within the law, regarding copyright and texts related to captions, but that’s another story.) I also have to add that points and statements are copyrighted by and large. That basicly meens that most statements and OoBs on subjects/units, that is posted at Feldgrau is (more or less) breaking Copyright laws, UNLESS derived directly from original documents that are in their possesion, (or that they have directly access to), And/Or sources are clearly stated. This also apply to Feldgrau, even though Mr. Pipes superb forum has no commercial value. Ofcource it is illegal to post pictures of scanned texts or photographic material, to a public audience, but extracting points and quotationg from books in writing, with the correct sources attached, and contributing to the Forum, is the only way this forum can exist.

I am obviously in total agreement that one should always respect the incredible amount of time and effort put into researching a book, and I treasure people like Mr. Yerger and Mr. Moore who has/take the time to write interesting books on the Waffen-SS etc. Its very hard work, and therefore people should adhere to the Copyright laws! Therefore I, (with very few exceptions), write the appropiate source(s), with each writing, or limited contribution to the forum. I have the highest respect for both Mr. Yerger and Mr. Moore, for their astonnishing works, but I cannot come to term with the word “Sacrifice” in Mr. Moore’s posting. Sacrifice? Maybe my english linguistic understanding is somewhat simple, but If you do not enjoy research and writing, why not do something else? Its your priority to write. Its not someone else that has forced the task of writing, these great works on the Waffen-SS on you, is it? I will buy(/have bought), within my financial range, your books etc. and support you income and/or research funding, but it is still your priority to “sacrifice”, not mine.

I somehow feel that you are both barking up the wrong tree. I know that the initial post was ment to be some kind guideline(?), but instead you're stating that people here(?) are violating copyright,.. and that in a very counter-productive way. I for one, does not like this kind of lecturing, although I agree on all your mayor points. Why not (In sketch) write some of the basic copyright rules, and give the Members of the forum examples, (on Feldgrau, or elsewere), on people breaking Int. Copyright rules? This way you could make people aware of this problem, so they will take notice the next time the write etc., instead of just making all writing and contribution problematic.
As to the Xerox incident put forward in the first post, I have to agree with Mr. Yerger 110%. Why not buy the book(s) if you’re willing to bother the Author, with stupid tasks, as making copies of pages. But again this frustration should be directed to the low IQ’s that have asked these idiotic favors from you, and not the wast mayority of the Feldgrau members, including me, that respects your writings and contributions to the forum.

This said, I agree whole-heartedly with Mr. Pipes. A few pages for non-profit research should be “allowed”, or accepted. Ofcource any later publication of the researched material would have to be accepted by the original author (Qoutes and photographic material that is.) The mayor reason I think this copyright “breaking” should be accepted, (NOT including hole books!), is that researchers and readers by and large, are not, as Mr. Moore stated was also the case for authors, independently wealthy. I truly enjoy reasearching, but I’m quite aware that my budget could not hold up, should I decide to buy all the interesting/important books on a topic. If I need forx. 3-4 pages in a book, should I then not be allowed to research, unless I buy the book?! IMHO we use the forum in the first place, to help eachother understand the finer aspects of forx. The Waffen-SS, and this also meens directing eachother to primary/secondary research material. Again this is NOT a plead to xerox al materials, just some points or views on the matter of research material taken into consideration, and the possibilitys for people, that does not have access to, and/or afforts to buy, the whole range of material.

Like Mr. Yerger, Mr. Moore and Mr. Pipes wrote, people should have the commen courtesy to ASK the author, when he/she wants to use any material copyrighted in a book, or on a website. And when contributing to this forum, please state your sources, I think that it would respect Copyright AND ease the research a lot!

All the best
Chris

BTW: Kimmo! You have made an excellent post, that could be the start of
a great an very productive discussion on understanding, what can be considered your own research. Thanks :D
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Postby Mark C Yerger » Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:52 am

I thought this was simple and logical enough to understand, but a degree of common sense is needed also. I'll grant some in other countries may not understand.

1) Wartime publications of the 3rd Reich do not have copyright. This is not the topic being discussed.

2) Quotes or passages for reviews are standard in the printing industry. This is not the topic discussed.

3) Thank you Chris, that common courtesy dictates there is no effort involved to ASK for permission when in doubt.

4) But when a page is reproduced EXACTLY in a publication or your own original photos or other material appear in the exact same format as your own published books what else is it called aside from theft ?

5) In reply to Jason the ONLY photocopied written materials here authored after 1945 are legally obtained dissertations (PAID FOR) by EMI dissertation services that legally makes copies of doctorate papers and sells them with permission of the authors. I don't photocopy other people's books, I buy them. If I mention a unique photo in a book on any foum I say where it is, let those who want to view it buy the damn book. Yes, there is a huge amount of material here. Paid for and (at least in in my case) done so at the expense of owning a home or other things (like a family due to my topic's social stigma, time involved, and costs) in order to obtain the material.

Now for a reality check. For the average $50-$60 book a publisher sells, such as "Allgemeine-SS" or Waffen-SS Commanders," I receive less than $1.50 per copy from a publisher. Softbound books far, far less, in one instance I was NEVER paid by a publisher used at the time. If you doubt the royalty figures, ask any author who has had his nice book done with large publishers like Schiffer for example. Ask Lepre, Nipe, and others how much they're actually paid for their monumental efforts. The average book takes a year or more of near fulltime work to WRITE once material is in hand (let's assume time has some unknown value), aside from postage, reference book, microfilm, other costs, additional years of time involved with veteran correspondence. I average $2500 a year spent on reference books, over $1,500 in postage costs. Microfilm is $34 a roll and requires one or more for each biography if a compilation of biographies is being written, in addition to tangent data in other microfilm rolls needed. This is US NARS costs, paper copies are $.25 to $.50 each from the same archive. My material from that archive alone in paper copy fills 4 filing cabenits, 4 drawers each, and there is no more room (do the math). Other archives also sell by paper copies, the Bundesarchiv it comes to the better part of a dollar per page. Some archives I've had to go to Europe to get the material, they won't sell copies by mail. Travel costs to archives yearly, minimum $500 (just in the USA). Archives charge for photo prints, as do photo labs to copy pictures loaned with permission to use by veterans. Doubt the figures; I have my tax filing for the last 20 years, be happy to make an idiot out of anyone doubting the numbers. The average publisher does 2000-3000 copies of a book in my field that averages 2-3 years to sell. Now do the math again: is there any damn reason why an author should think it is "fine" to have his work reproduced in any way, including "personal use," without permission and/or compensation ?? To every person who ever assumed I'm "a wealthy author" deal with the facts; if I didn't have a regular job I'd be eating my cats to survive. It isn't a profit motivated or profit successful undertaking with time + materials. Ask any author of reasonably QUALITY reference books. Obviously its partly done for other reasons it appears few seem to be able to grasp, doing it is enough financial sacrifice. It is easy to read on any forum who has actually written anything and who has not, or done original research or not. If writing was so "easy" as I've heard elsewhere, why are only a few of use releasing books that have a majority percentage of NEW data instead of simply taking material already published in 5 books and making a "new" one ? Theft from authors will do nothing except make good authors quit, then everyone will be reduced to buying the $2 a copy commercial junk on bargain tables in booksores. The learning process will stop. In a final note, I can count on one hand in the past 25 years those who had the common decent insight to even offer the cost of postage when making research requests that requires hours of work and piles of archive material. How much do each of you get compensated for your job per hour, especially those who have a job few others can do ? As for helping in return, that's fine. Read the acknowledgments section of my books to see its the same small group who assist. Forget the militaria collectors (uniforms, medals, documents,etc), except for 3-4 they're a non-contributing as a group but have plenty of stones to ask for. I'm printing out this thread and sending it to several SS veterans who've helped me for years, they'll be dumbfounded and probably ask why I continue to bother writing at all. Having had heart surgery this year I need to walk away for the day, reading this thread is bad for my health, as is the attitude and obvious lack of moral character exercised by some portions of the reading public.

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Postby Kimmo » Sat Apr 19, 2003 7:13 am

Mark C. Yerger wrote:I'll grant some in other countries may not understand.

Having had heart surgery this year I need to walk away for the day, reading this thread is bad for my health, as is the attitude and obvious lack of moral character exercised by some portions of the reading public.


Thanks...

My only intention was to raise the question, that how much is needed to call something your own piece of work?

I couldn't agree you more, that's it's wrong to take something from someone's work and call it your own. I photograph and I certainly don't want to see the pictures appearing in any other site, book or a hard drive, than mine.

They are my original work and I certainly would be pissed off, if I would see them somewhere else, copyrighted to some other person than me.

And then to the next issue that's been bothering me lately:

Mark C. Yerger wrote:1) Wartime publications of the 3rd Reich do not have copyright. This is not the topic being discussed..


Yes, this issue was discussed lately here. But how about pictures, some of them before the war?

Most of the pictures have the name of the photographer in place, copyrighted to he or she, not to the Third Reich. Are they still under a copyright law? Maybe the photographer has died, but what about his family, that still might be around? Can they make a claim to the pictures?

These are just a thoughts and really not meant to piss off anybody.

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Postby Mark C Yerger » Sat Apr 19, 2003 8:27 am

Kimmo

Photos in archives are in public domain, but obviously some simply copy the photo from a book already printed and use it. Those own by individuals, given to authors for a particular use, and then copied by others in the same manner is simple theft and cheapness on the part of the user. Wartime property of the 3rd Reich, in many cases, is not owned by individuals. When someone posts a photo and says "got this from person x's book" or otherwise uses on a website its not obtained by him, he's stolen it from a publication, gaining whatever benefits without consent of the researcher/author and not even paying for a copy of the photo to use. Case in point. I was given a private photo of a GC winner by John Moore for my "German Cross in Silver Holders" book, and am the only person he loaned this photo obtained from the individual illustrated (with their permission). It now appears in a US publication issued by one of the more politically zealot authors I'm told, obviously copied due to poor recopied quality and originating source, and used without even asking either of us. Use by others of the same type of action is unacceptable, despite that author's well known reputation for copying others work often and using in his own "works" due to his political interests and lack of original research or holdings. There is an obvious difference between using a reference listed in a bibliography compared to blatant copying. In the future, I'm considering deleting photos from all references I write and just doing textbooks, even if the photos are available. Why should I pay all the associated costs and time invested for others to assume they can take as they please and use freely elsewhere ?

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Postby Kimmo » Sat Apr 19, 2003 8:43 am

Mark

I agree with you completely!

I will admit that I have been tempted to copy pictures from books, but with my charasteristics it's not possible.

I wouldn't be happy at all with the result, when I know that I really don't own the pictures.

It's just sad I think. Most of the web pages that are showing original photos are usually "spoiling" the whole picture with their copyright markings, in order to stop anybody using them.

As an example, in internet auctions, most of the sellers are taking the precaution to spoil the picture they are showing, so that no one will copy it from the screen!

Crazy world...

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Use of Copiers

Postby John P. Moore » Sat Apr 19, 2003 9:01 am

I will concede that it is probably acceptable to copy a few pages from a book in a library for ones`s own personal use. However, it is not something that I can recall doing myself. What can can vividly recall is literally the weeks that I have spent in archives around the world using a pencil to record information on a legal pad as I studied the original wartime documents. Copier machines were not usually readily available or cost-prohibitive to use. This type of higher-level research is both costly and time-consuming, but is typical for accomplished authors. We are understandably peeved when we receive reports of our work appearing in the publications of others without our permission or even the courtesy of an acknowledgement of the source.
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Postby Jason Pipes » Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:20 am

Gentlemen, it seems to me the greatest single concern is the use of original research material either online or in print without proper citation or permission from the original author. This is something we can all agree upon 100% without question. Anyone, for any reason, that uses source material without providing a proper source, and more importantly, getting permission for doing so from that source when and where possible, is guilty as charged.

Question for the group - original ideas are protected by copyright, but facts are not. The representation of facts are, but not the facts themselves. Therefore it seems to me your concerns are mainly with those who use facts you've took the time and effort to dig up without bothering to ask your permission or cite you as a proper source. (It goes without saying that anyone who simply copies how you expressed those facts word-for-word is guilty of a double sin.)

Would you gentlemen agree?

If so, and I believe the answer is yes, regardless of how someone "takes down" info and facts found in your works or the works of others, either via photocopy, pen and paper, memory, etc, it's not so much the act of "taking down" the info that is the problem but the use of that info without properly citing it and asking for permission to do so from the author.
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Postby John P. Moore » Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:20 pm

Jason, The bottom line is what does the law say and what relief have the courts been providing in various countries. I think we all know the answer to that and I don`t believe that most people want to incur the expense of defending a lawsuit. You would probably also be wise to consider the possible extent of your legal liability in hosting a web site where violations of the law might take place.
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