Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

[Stormman]

Very interesting! Thank you for sharing this information.
Where these participants of the NS-Führerschule former officers of the Norwegian Army?
(NS stands for Nasjonal Samling and not Nationalsozialistische I suspect?)

[Regiment Norge]

Very interesting! Thank you for sharing this information.
Where these participants of the NS-Führerschule former officers of the Norwegian Army?
(NS stands for Nasjonal Samling and not Nationalsozialistische I suspect?)

Hi!

They were NOT former norwegian officers but had gone through the Nasjonal Samlings Führerschule at Jessheim. Alle came from the ranks of NSUF.

Regards

[Stormman]

I was wondering, is there actually any prove that the 4. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere was the last of his kind? And what happened to former officers that joined the Waffen-SS after the summer of 1944? I know that there where approximately 30 former Flemish officers that all attended the 13. Kriegs-Reservejunker-Lehrgang, after the Lehrgang they where promoted to SS-Ustuf., SS-Ostuf. and SS-Hstuf. But was this an exception?

[Regiment Norge]

I was wondering, is there actually any prove that the 4. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere was the last of his kind? And what happened to former officers that joined the Waffen-SS after the summer of 1944? I know that there where approximately 30 former Flemish officers that all attended the 13. Kriegs-Reservejunker-Lehrgang, after the Lehrgang they where promoted to SS-Ustuf., SS-Ostuf. and SS-Hstuf. But was this an exception?

Hi!

Interesting question, I only have information concerning the norwegians at Tölz. In a norwegian newspaper GERMANEREN i found an advertisment concerning 6. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere who shold start in 1945 and that there was a schedule when applicants have to sendt their requests to attend this course. This is the only time I have seen a so late germanische course but I lack evidence to that this course ever started.

In german documents I can only find document up to the 4. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere. I have only found norwegian participants at; Kriegs-Junker-Lehrgänge, Lehrgänge für germanische Offiziere and Lehrgänge für Versherte Führerbewerber. In november 1942 a special course named Lehrgang für norwegische und estnische Ofiziere begann, who in 1943 changed name to 1. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere. Former norwegian officers who voluntered for W-SS was sent to Kriegs-Junker-Lehrgang, and I have also seen those who were promoted to i.e SS-Ustuf without attending Junkerschule at all. Although RFSS have made it clear in an order in 1942 that ALL former officers have to go through a course at Tölz.

As I can remember John had some new documents to this thread, hopefully it will be published here so we can discuss them further.

Regards

[Stormman]

Very interesting!
When exactly could those Norwegians be send to Tölz for the planed 6. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere? And if a 6. Lehrgang was planed the 5. Lehrgang probably already started?
On the forum of www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de there was a post mentioning the dates of these two lehrgang:
5. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere 15.8.1944 - 15.12.1944
6. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere 15.2.1945 - 27.3.1945
I’ll try to find the link.
And I only can find one former officer of the Belgian army from who I don’t have any records about what Lehrgang he went at the SS-Junkerschule Tölz, his name was SS-Ustuf. Ferdinand van Nitsen (Oostende°29.03.1922), he served in with the 27.SS-Frw.Gren.Div.Langemarck, and died in Altdamm on 19.3.1945.

[Stormman]

Here you go:
http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/threa ... stid=91271

A member of this forum called Björn aus Norwegen knows some names of Norwegian participants of the 5. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere.

[Regiment Norge]

Here you go:
http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/threa ... stid=91271

A member of this forum called Björn aus Norwegen knows some names of Norwegian participants of the 5. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere.

Hi!

Thats strange, I know Bjørn aus Norwegen, maybe there is some mix of various courses i.e. 5 course for disabled Junkers he meant. I have never come across any norwegian name to this 5 or 6 officers course. As said on the forum der wehrmacht thread, there is not documentation ever that these two courses ever started. Maybe it was planned by SS-Hauptamt but never realized.

Regards

[Stormman]

This is very confusing.

[Regiment Norge]

Hei!

One must check the various SS-PA to foreign officers and se if any went through any of these two courses (5 and 6). I think that they may be planned on paper but never actually started at Tölz. The vast majority of former foreign officers enlisted in 1942/44 and went through courses (1-4).

Looking forward to se if there is any officer related to these two mysterious courses.

Regards

[Regiment Norge]

Guy - I do know about the interesting military career of Larry Thorne. However, his service in the Waffen-SS was very brief. There is no Personalakte for Larry Thorne and I have not seen his name turn up in any W-SS documents. The Finns in the "Wiking" division performed very well.

Steve - I believe that after successfuly completing a Junkerschule course that a man could receive an officer's commisssion in the Waffen-SS at an equivalent rank that he held in his nation's military.

John

Hi!

He changed his name from THÖRNI to THORNE in the 1950s. As I am writing off-hand can not remember if there was any SS-PA to a Lauri THÖRNI??? I have some rememberence from finnish (also SS) documents were his name can be found. Maybe Olli Wikberg can add some light to this question. THÖRNI went to SS from Finland in may 1941 but did not end up in the FFB and saw action in the FFB replacment Btl. in Germany for a short time before dismissed.

His 1945 service in the SS are unknown to me, what sort of service was that? The leader of the finnish company in the Jagdverband Nord-West was Ustuf. Kaj LAURELL who was interned at Akershus Fortress in Oslo in may 1945.

Regards

[-michael]

I have a question about a participant on the 2. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere; Fernand Collard (geb. 5.7.1912) who was promoted to SS-Ostuf.d.R. m.W.v. 25.9.1943. I did some research and It seems that he was born in Liège (Wallonie) and that he was a French speaking Belgian, a Walloon. And he was probably a member of the Waffen-SS before the Légion Wallonie was absorbed in the Waffen-SS. This is probably very exceptional, and I was wondering if there where people who have more information about Collard?

[Marc Rikmenspoel]

I don't have information about Collard in particular, but Michael, you are probably aware that the composition of Belgian Waffen-SS units was mixed. Some men with French names considered themselves Flemish and served in the Flemish Waffen-SS, and some men with Dutch names grew up speaking French, and chose to serve in Walloon units. Some men from French Flanders joined the Flemish Waffen-SS

Politics also affected where a man ended up. Some Flemings were Rexists, and ended up joining Degrelle in the Division Wallonien late in the war. Some Walloons were AGRA members, and served in Wiking up to the summer of 1943. That would seem the most likely case for Collard, that he was not a Rexist. AGRA members were considered Germanic as early as 1941, well before the mass of Walloons were given this status.

Edit, I checked the John Moore's Führerliste for Foreign officers, and there's two pages for Collard. He was assigned to the III. (germ.) SS-Panzerkorps after graduation from the 2. Lehrgang fur Germanisches Offiziere, and later was specifically assigned to the Nordland Division. So he was almost certainly NOT a Rexist.

[Regiment Norge]

Hi!

Does somebody have the SS-FHA order from 1942, saying that no former national officers shal be given the eqvivalent rank in the Waffen-SS before he went through a course at Tølz and can publish it here?

From a norwegian point of view I can find several former norwegian officers who were indeed given their eqvivalent rank in the Waffen-SS WITHOUT attending any course at Tölz. This happened in 1942-43-44, one was a norwegian captain who ended the war as a Ostubaf and temporarily commander Korps.Pi.Führer within the III.(germ.)SS-Pz.Korps. When he joined the W-SS in february/march 1943 only the 1 Lehrgang f. germ. Offz had started. He could have been commanded into the 2 Lehrgang staring in the summer of 1943, but that did not happend. This was also the case for another norwegian officers in the 2 SS und Polizeikompanie, who became an Ustuf without Tölz. Later in 1944 when the 3 SS und Polizeikompanie was established, two former norwegian officers were given the rank of Ustuf without Tölz again.