German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

German Kriegsmarine 1935-1945.

Moderator: phylo_roadking

Postby Troy Tempest » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:03 am

Hi Sid, Paul Lakowski put me onto that site a while ago, it's a beauty.

Troy
Hello from sunny Sydney
User avatar
Troy Tempest
Enthusiast
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Postby phylo_roadking » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:29 am

That snippet of info there doesnt mention one of the REAL design peculiarities of the Fi167....those long undercarriage stuts were designed to be detachable! The pilot could drop them if he was going to have to ditch, and the fuselage of the 167 was sealed and designed to float, a real rarity among carrierborne aircraft!
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
phylo_roadking
Admin
 
Posts: 8538
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Postby sid guttridge » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:08 am

Hi Phylo,

The site does mention the same feature of droppable undercarriage in the case of the Ju87C.

Cheers,

sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby phylo_roadking » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:24 am

The 87-C had them because in the case of the Stuka the air intake and the bottom run of the cranked wings were bad enough, the "Sea Stuka" was guaranteed to loop on contact with the water. And as you know, aircraft ending up upside down in the water was an almost sure killer of aircrew - i think the figures are 87% of crew in this position during the war never survived. This is opposed to the 167 which dropped them almost as a buoyancy aid to assist the fuselage in remaining afloat.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
phylo_roadking
Admin
 
Posts: 8538
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Postby sid guttridge » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:59 am

Hi Phylo,

I don't think there is any evidence that the Fi167 dropped them for any other reason than the Ju87C did. It wouldn't do the Fi167 much good, watertight or not, to be violently thrown onto its back because it had fixed undercarriage!

Cheers,

Sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby phylo_roadking » Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:15 am

Sid - the secret is in the way each would contact the water; the Stuka would have insurmountable drag problems anyway because of its underslung radiator and the "elbow" joints on the wing, a Stuka landing like that would pile in and flip....they had a quite high stalling speed for any sort of landing. The FI167 though apparently had an even LOWER stalling speed than the Storch....so a pilot would have been able to bring his plane down on water at nearly walking speed.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
phylo_roadking
Admin
 
Posts: 8538
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

Postby nebelwerferXXX » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:22 pm

German Aircraft Carriers:
1) Graf Zeppelin
2) Peter Strasser

Aircraft carried:
naval-version of the Me-109 fighter
naval-version of the STUKA dive-bomber
nebelwerferXXX
 

Re: German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

Postby lwd » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:07 am

Is there any real basis for the name of the 2nd German carrier? Certainly they never carried any planes. I've seen a number of hypothetical air groups.
lwd
Enthusiast
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:35 am

Re: German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

Postby nebelwerferXXX » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:40 am

nebelwerferXXX wrote:German Aircraft Carriers:
1) Graf Zeppelin
2) Peter Strasser

Aircraft carried:
naval-version of the Me-109 fighter
naval-version of the STUKA dive-bomber


GRAF ZEPPELIN
After World War I Germany was denied any opportunity of developing a carrier force as a result of restrictions imposed upon them in 1919. By 1933 Wilhelm Hadelar had prepared a basic design for a full deck carrier able to operate 40 aircraft, but lack of construction experience delayed the project. In 1935 work began, but GRAF ZEPPELIN's completion was delayed to make way for the U-boat programme. The incomplete carrier was scuttled a few months before the end of World War II. She was raised by the Soviet Union, but sank on her way to Leningrad. GRAF ZEPPELIN was originally intended to carry an air group of 12 Ju 87D dive-bombers and 30 Me 109F fighters; this was later amended to 28 Ju 87Ds and 12 Me 109s. Half of a sister ship was also completed; it was speculated that this vessel would be named PETER STRASSER, after the commander of the German Naval Airship Division in World War I.

source:
Battleships and Carriers...Steve Crawford
nebelwerferXXX
 

Re: German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

Postby Paul Lakowski » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:22 pm

In 1928 the then defense minister Groener launched the first major expansion of the Reichwehr. He authorize the various service branches to breach the ToV in anyway they could and authorized personnel expansion from 100,000 to 150,000 personnel. He shocked the german military establishment into action by scuttling the basic foundation of their strategic wargaming . He made them face the fact that the League of Nations would not save Germany from any aggressor .If Poland did to Germany what it tried to do to USSR in 1920/21 , Germany armed forces would have to lay down their arms after a week or two of fighting due to lack of ammo. He authorized Germany to prepare for a two front war with Poland and France with a 'reasonable chance of winning the wider European war'.

In the area of the navy he refuzed to authorize the new 'Panzerschiff' production as long range commerce raiders, instead demanding that they be capable of high speed attacks against enemy warships in local waters [7000nm @ 28knots has been reported by some]. The 1928 naval building plan authorized the following warships.

1 x HMS Couragous style aircraft carrier.
6 x Panzerschiff
6 x Kreuzer
44 x Zerstoer & 16 Uboats.

Information of the above ships suggests the Zerstroer would have been 1500-1700 tons designed [2500 tons max] and may have been based on the WW-I "Torpedoboot Zerstroer" warship design that became the basis of French super destroyers and the Italian Scout cruisers of the 1930s. Likewise Uboat plans envisaged 1926 mobilization contracts for the building of 84 WW-I Uboats within two years of mobilization.

36 WW-I UF uboats
42 UG uboats
6 UC-III uboats

Source: Rossler's "The Uboat the evolution and technical history of german submarines" pp 97.
With the secret development of Uboats for Spain Turkey and Sweden, the above Uboat designs were replaced with the Type I II and VII designs by the mid 1930s mobilization plan.

After much stormy debate this plan was finally authorized in late 1932 only to be shelfed the moment Hitler took power since he only wanted a coastal defense fleet , so as not to upset his planned courting of the UK.

In any event even with the prewar building surge, this plan would have been completed by 1937, allowing for a further follow on naval expansion at that time.

Eric Groner in his mamoth works updated in 1944, comments that the second Aircraft Carrier name

"The project name of Peter Strasser is an unconfirmed speculation, but not unlikely" pp 72 German Warships 1815-1945 Volume One: Major Surface vessels.

Other Source "The Wehrmacht and German Rearmament " Wilhelm Diest.
Paul Lakowski
Supporter
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:56 am

Re: German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

Postby nebelwerferXXX » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:00 pm

nebelwerferXXX wrote:German Aircraft Carriers:
1) Graf Zeppelin
2) Peter Strasser

Aircraft carried:
naval-version of the Me-109 fighter
naval-version of the STUKA dive-bomber


Counting each weapon:
Two aircraft-carriers (Graf Zeppelin, launched in 1938, plus one other)
---24 x 104-mm (4.1-inch guns)
---32 x 150-mm (5.9-inch guns)
---86 x aircraft
nebelwerferXXX
 

Previous

Return to Kriegsmarine

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests