German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

[phylo_roadking]

Nor did one surface raider at a time...except to have the Royal Navy chasing all over creation! Depends on how desperately you might have wanted that...and what else you intended to have going on where...?

The British could plan on the back of their Ultra intercepts, but the Germans were planning their offensive strategy throughout the war under older, more "conventional" secrecy and strategy.

My point about slow lumbering aircraft is not Coastal Command's reconnaisance role, but their "offensive" role against submarines.

U.S.S. Ranger wasnt in the equation when the GZ was laid down. Nor was war against the U.S. at all. Silly Adolf - would have been fun watching what would have happened in Europe if HE hadnt declared war on the US on 8th December 1941! My posit would have been a retaliatory war against Japan ok, but the still-isolationist Congress would have keep Roosevelt out of the European Theatre except for accelerated Lend-Lease.

You have to remember that until Pearl Harbour, the British defensive/offensive planning was both global and yet remarkably parochial at times. Apart from very limited and sometimes very covert assistance, they were very much aware they were IT versus Hitler, and had to cover all bases and probabilites. One major German naval asset at a time loose in the Atlantic caused mayhem, let alone in harbour in Brest or at anchor in Norway. This in turn had knock-on effects on assets that could be released to Gibraltar or Alexandria, let alone the Far East.

{Evidence? Much is discussed here about Gunter Prien, but what about a similar successful attack on Scapa Flow during the FIRST World War, that had the Home Fleet running off to Lough Swilly in Ireland - what might have happened right THEN if the German High Seas Fleet had sortied??? And that panic withdrawal was bought at the cost of ONE torpedo spread. And by overriding on the ground (!) the orders of the Admiralty.}

[Sid, the German's DID once have a world class navy, and the officers of flag rank in WWII served it it in the Great War. They retained a "global" vision, but at the same time a very good grasp of how trammelled and limited they were by the small size of the WWII Kriegsmarine, and its less-than-global-reach. The RN only learned that lesson when in naval terms they started trying to fight a multi-theatre war and resources kept going to the bottom]

Phylo

[Royal Navy]

Gentlemen, I am perplexed... The Graf Zeppelin ESCORTING the Bismark. What ever the reson for the GZ to be completed, it was not to escort a battleship!! Battleships, crusiers and destroyers are supposed to escort carriers, whatever the mission.

[Tiornu]

I don't think you'll find many battleships that were designed to escort carriers.
I can't say that the Germans themselves had a viable vision for what a carrier was for, but the genesis of the carrier project lay in concerns for providing raiders with air support.

[Royal Navy]

I do believe that the designers of the Iowa class of battleship would have disagreed about the fact that BB's never escorted aircraft carriers. The reason why the modern US battleships of WWII had all those AA guns and their high speed was that they were supposed to operate together with the fast carrier Task Forces. And since no battleship gun will ever rival the range of an aircraft, thus they were there to protect the carriers from threats that the carriers themselves could not handle, hence they were escorts. I admit that the BB's were able to operate on their own in some ways, for example shore gunnery, but one of the great innovations with the Task Forces/Groups was the fact that they provided the other type of ship with a compensation for its weaknesses, guns from the BB's protected the CV's and aircraft from latter handled the air threat. This line of reasoning is of course applicable when it concerns crusier and destroyers.

[Tiornu]

Yes, the Iowas were the only battleships I can think of that had carrier escort as a primary consideration, unless you want to consider the Alaskas battleships as well.
The range issue is an interesting one, and it's important to see it in its historical context. The Americans held a series of somewhat-yearly "Fleet Problems" between the wars. One of the important factors they experimented with was the proper role and deployment of carriers. Almost without exception--perhaps completely without exception--when fleet actions were simulated, a carrier found itself at some point within gun range of enemy surface ships. This was because the aircraft of that time did not have much range. It wasn't until the late 1930's that the new generation of carrier planes with their more efficient engines provided enough reach to keep the enemy at arm's reach. But the primacy of the aircraft carrier had not yet been established. Even those who were carrier advocates had to acknowledge the simple reality that there weren't yet enough carriers to displace the battleship. Keep in mind that, all through WWII, you will not find even one example of a battleship that was sunk while provided with suitable aerial protection. Given that fact, the aircraft carrier did not have any "say" about where the enemy could go with his battleships, while a battleship could drive any aircraft carrier off the scene, unless the carrier had its own substantial battleship to fall back on. That is, until the carrier fully displaced the battleship, it was the battleship that determined command of the sea.

[cpa95]

Gentlemen, I am perplexed... The Graf Zeppelin ESCORTING the Bismark. What ever the reson for the GZ to be completed, it was not to escort a battleship!! Battleships, crusiers and destroyers are supposed to escort carriers, whatever the mission.

The Germans had a different intention to buílt carriers (GZ and "B"). They had to support and escort BB,BC and CA in the "Handelskrieg", war at sea against merchant ships.

The whole "Plan Z" was formed by this intention.

Greetings
Thomas

[Paul Lakowski]

http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte ... story.html

It looks like the Germans had ideas for carriers back in WW-I. The most obvious reason being the scouting ability of the sea planes which extended the range ‘fleet reconnaissance’. From the POV of raiders it would be more efficient at finding enemy merchant shipping with scouting planes, and avoid enemy fleets. Which explains the focus on the Fi167 biplane, since it would have been an excellent scout plane . I guess from that logic POV, once you have a floating airbase to accompany and scout for battle groups, the self-protection of that group makes sense, so some Me-109 fighter cover works. Even a bad fighter is better than no fighter cover at all!

An interesting follow through on this was the notion of mounting sea planes on destroyers to further extend ‘fleet reconnaissance’.

http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte ... index.html

I suspect that when Raeder saw and funded the Helicopter research and development that Dr Flettner was pursuing in the late 1930s, he probably had the same idea in mind. Had he gotten the support he needed, I would not be surprised to see helicopters [Fl-282] mounted on German warships from destroyers up, from 1942 on?

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... index.html

[Paul Lakowski]

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... index.html

They also clearly had ideas on ASW with these helicopters as well.

How come you can't edit your posts?

[U-404]

guy's + girl's,

i have just come by some information showing that germany had 4 carrier's lunched by 1939, but all of them seem to have been converted to passenger ship's, why?, had these not been done as passenger ship's and left as carrier's could this have ment the difference about the bismarck's sinking.

name's are as follow's:
Europa
Gneisenau
Potsdam
Seydlitz

can you please give some information on these.

thanks

If I'm not wrong, Germany in total had 4 aircraft carriers:
2 Flugzeugtrager's: Graf Zeppelin and Seidlitz
2 Hilfsflugzeugtrager's: Europa and Potsdam

Although they were not built till the end or there were other reasons becuse none of them were used in WWII (in combats).

Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. I myself feel very interested about it.

Also, I'm new to the forums (actually I've been reading it for a few months), and I hope I won't bore anyone here to death :)

[Sam H.]

Eropa was a liner considered for conversion to a carrier - no conversion work took place.

Potsdam was a transport also considered for conversion to an escort carrier - again, no conversion took place.

GZ was launched but not completed.

Seydlitz was the incomplete Hipper class vessel taken in hand for conversion - it was never completed.

[von_noobie]

thanks sam

[U-404]

Sam H. Thanks for the info,

Some new stats I've found recently:

1. Graf Zeppelin - Had 2 catapults for lifting planes, was to carry 40 planes: 18 Ju 78C Stuka and 22 Me 109.

2. Europa - Had 2 catapults, was to carry 42 planes.

3. Potsdam - 2 catapults, 24 planes

4. Seydlitz - was supposed to have 2 catapults and carry 3 planes (Arado type). Later, it was planned to build it the way to carry 8 Ju 87D planes and 10 Bf 109G, although it was never completed.

[von_noobie]

thanks U-404, every bit of info helps.

[Srgt Rock]

I am an American so I view the use of Aircraft Carriers in a different light.

I think almost all of the posts I've read on this subject miss an important point. As soon as Germany commissioned GZ their fleet tactics would have changed!

First, a carrier would not sortie in the same task force as a surface group but in a seperate task force. The operations of these joint task forces would be similar to the US Navy's fleet excersizes in the late 20s.

Second point is that operations would change from bad weather to good weather!!!! It seems to me that the reason to sortie in bad weather is to avoid location by enemy a/c and contact with surface ships. However, when you can easily conduct air searches and CAP then you can avoid any surface contacts and shoot down/drive away any search planes.

The best choice for breakout route would then became the Iceland-Faroes gap. Surface TF leading the Carrier TF.

As for GZ's aircraft, the 109T would have had a hard time just as the Sea Hurricaines did but it would have still work. As for range, I could easily see the 109T carrying additional wing mounted drop tanks. The Fi167 would have made a wonderful carrier plane. With its STOL capabilities, the entire squadron could operate from the carrier along with the 40 109s and 87s. (US deck park principals)

If GZ did break out into the Atlantic, just how would she be doomed to be sunk? GZ would have been able to absorb as much damage as the British Illustrious class. NO Illustrious class CV was ever sunk! As long as GZ had fuel and even a few planes, she could out run any surface forces. I think it would have taken carrier planes to get her. The British did not have any that would have done the job. It would have taken US Dauntless and Avenger a/c.

[Paul Lakowski]

Srgt Rock, good post and I mostly agree.

I would add another point. Most people who discuss RN/KM actions focus on a few select missions that highlite vulnerablities of those said ships and tactics and generalise from those cases to the whole.This gives an distorted image of the naval war in WW-II. I' ve been pouring over O'Harra's "The German Fleet at War 1939-1945". It seems that German tactics and training were quite good especially upto 1943 and could be quickly adapted to changing situations. This was especially true of the earlier years over the later years where aggressive spirited leadership often allowed a handful of torpedo boote to engage larger much better gunned cruiser lead flotillas and win. It seems the germans made much better use of torpedos than the allies until the last years of the war.

As far back as WW-I the germans were searching for ways to enhance their fleet reconnassiance. They put sea planes on the backs of Torpedoboots and embraced their first carrier . At that time it was a hybrid carrier for sea plane /carrier plane, but the concept was their. Even at the start of the war they had a mini seaplane carrier. In 1935 Admiral Canaris was putting down proposals for a fleet of carriers to help the navy realise its convoy escort missions across oceans. So it was being discussed and I have no doubt they would have uses such assets well.

Its clear in naval clashes that finding the enemy is more than half the battle. Who spots who first often defines the action. No platform better does this than carriers. Even if they are mostly spotter planes they could make great contributions to existing naval operations and bring more offensive power to the Germans.

Even in Carrier - Carrier clashs in the early years, the Me-109T would be able to atleast match Sea Hurricane performance until the Seafire appears in mid war? It stands to reason that if the early Me-109 could be modified to carrier role then so to could the Me-109F and Me-109G to fill a carrier role by mid war period.