German Destroyers
German Destroyers
I have read somewhere that they were oversized and performed poorly in the open ocean. Is this a true statement?
German destroyers
Hello !
Indeed you are right!
German destroyers were in general larger than their foreign counterparts, f.e. type 34A 2270 ts standard (1625 t official !!!) and the British G-class about 1350 ts standard.
Despite that advantage the Germans performed poor in heavy weather comparing with others.
F.e. on 08.04.1940 BERND VON ARNIM fought against GLOWWORM in very bad sea conditions.
The German ship rolled until 50 degrees to each side and as K.Kapt. Rechel tried to run 35 kn against the sea, even the bottom of the 3,7 cm AA platform amidship was under water! Two men of the second (forward) gun crew were washed away, so Rechel was forced to reduced the speed to 27 kn.
On the other side, Rechel reported after the battle, that the British destroyer was able to run every speed - even against the sea - with a nearly dry forecastle!
This was very frustrating for him!
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
Indeed you are right!
German destroyers were in general larger than their foreign counterparts, f.e. type 34A 2270 ts standard (1625 t official !!!) and the British G-class about 1350 ts standard.
Despite that advantage the Germans performed poor in heavy weather comparing with others.
F.e. on 08.04.1940 BERND VON ARNIM fought against GLOWWORM in very bad sea conditions.
The German ship rolled until 50 degrees to each side and as K.Kapt. Rechel tried to run 35 kn against the sea, even the bottom of the 3,7 cm AA platform amidship was under water! Two men of the second (forward) gun crew were washed away, so Rechel was forced to reduced the speed to 27 kn.
On the other side, Rechel reported after the battle, that the British destroyer was able to run every speed - even against the sea - with a nearly dry forecastle!
This was very frustrating for him!
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
Thanks Peter
Why was the German design of destroyers inferior to the Allies?
weak points of German destroyers
Hello again !
1.
It´s important to know, that since the end of World War One there was no possiblity for german constructors and shipyards to collect some experience in designing and building a modern destroyer with the remarkable size of the German one´s!
2.
This inexperience lead to a weak hull strength, especially in the region of the forecastle at heavy sea. Moreover the underwater hull form was a bad construction, this time especially astern!
Both failures were reduced later, but never completely disapear!
3.
Without radically changing the complete hull design, in later series the good main gun armament was chanced from 12,7 to 15 cm calibre. Among other minor difficulties, this heavier armament - especially a massive double turret firing over the bow - caused some heavy stability troubles! That was the reason, why the endurance was cut down, because fuel must be carry as ballast to keep the ships operational!
Moreover later in the war, additional AA guns and radar increased this stability troubles.
4.
A very weak point of the German destroyers was their machinery, or better their boilers.
The German navy introduced the new high pressure superheated steam boilers of the Benson and mainly Wagner type. Unfortunately this was done in a very risky manner, because large scale trials with this high power system couldn´t be done for time reasons! The effect for the destroyers was, that the boiler rooms were very cramped and a large amount of auxiliary machines were necessary, which needed also additional steam!
In fact the unreliable machinery was a major handicap for the German destroyers - on the one hand a German destroyer commander could simply find his ship much easier at a shipyard for machinery repairs than anywhere else, especially in the first years and on the other hand - if he managed successful going to sea, he had always think about a sudden major break down of the propulsion!
BTW, the German designed some very interesting destroyer types with diesel engines (Z51, which was even under construction, and others) and multi purpose armament (12,8 cm with a radar controlled fire director) later in the war!
Greetings
Peter K. from Austria
1.
It´s important to know, that since the end of World War One there was no possiblity for german constructors and shipyards to collect some experience in designing and building a modern destroyer with the remarkable size of the German one´s!
2.
This inexperience lead to a weak hull strength, especially in the region of the forecastle at heavy sea. Moreover the underwater hull form was a bad construction, this time especially astern!
Both failures were reduced later, but never completely disapear!
3.
Without radically changing the complete hull design, in later series the good main gun armament was chanced from 12,7 to 15 cm calibre. Among other minor difficulties, this heavier armament - especially a massive double turret firing over the bow - caused some heavy stability troubles! That was the reason, why the endurance was cut down, because fuel must be carry as ballast to keep the ships operational!
Moreover later in the war, additional AA guns and radar increased this stability troubles.
4.
A very weak point of the German destroyers was their machinery, or better their boilers.
The German navy introduced the new high pressure superheated steam boilers of the Benson and mainly Wagner type. Unfortunately this was done in a very risky manner, because large scale trials with this high power system couldn´t be done for time reasons! The effect for the destroyers was, that the boiler rooms were very cramped and a large amount of auxiliary machines were necessary, which needed also additional steam!
In fact the unreliable machinery was a major handicap for the German destroyers - on the one hand a German destroyer commander could simply find his ship much easier at a shipyard for machinery repairs than anywhere else, especially in the first years and on the other hand - if he managed successful going to sea, he had always think about a sudden major break down of the propulsion!
BTW, the German designed some very interesting destroyer types with diesel engines (Z51, which was even under construction, and others) and multi purpose armament (12,8 cm with a radar controlled fire director) later in the war!
Greetings
Peter K. from Austria
Schnellboote
Hello SAM !
In my opinion the German "Schnellboote" - let me use the German term for them - were among the best, if not THE best warship design of the German navy.
Their main advantage over all foreign designs was their hull form, which allows them to displace the water and not sliding over it (I hope, my explanation is understandable! - I hate my limited English!
.
Together with the diesel propulsion, which is much safer than the petrol powered engines of their counterparts, their also larger size, which increased their seaworthyness massively, allowed them, to operate not only under the coast, but also in the open water of the north sea, for example.
In fact, a lot of motor torpedo boats of other countries were much faster than the German´s, but only a calm sea. The German boats could run their speed even at a motion of sea, which didn´t permit their counterparts to leave their harbor!
If you have further questions, feel free to ask!
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
In my opinion the German "Schnellboote" - let me use the German term for them - were among the best, if not THE best warship design of the German navy.
Their main advantage over all foreign designs was their hull form, which allows them to displace the water and not sliding over it (I hope, my explanation is understandable! - I hate my limited English!
.Together with the diesel propulsion, which is much safer than the petrol powered engines of their counterparts, their also larger size, which increased their seaworthyness massively, allowed them, to operate not only under the coast, but also in the open water of the north sea, for example.
In fact, a lot of motor torpedo boats of other countries were much faster than the German´s, but only a calm sea. The German boats could run their speed even at a motion of sea, which didn´t permit their counterparts to leave their harbor!
If you have further questions, feel free to ask!
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
Thank you Peter
You are wealth of information.
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sid guttridge
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Mitch Kelly
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Destroyer Size
True Sid,
Most US ships tended to be larger than their British equivalents, partly for reasons of comfort, but also because the Americans expected to steam further between refuellings than the British, who had their vast network of bases and harbours dotted all over the world. Hence, they expected to carry more fuel. This is paerticularly shown with battleships - US battleships tended to vastly outrange their British equivalents.
As an aside, German battleships of the Great War tended to be smaller than their Royal Navy counterparts for a similar reason: whilst a British battleship might sail round the Empire, and the crew would largely live aboard, the German ships were essentailly only manned when they made sorties from their bases in Germany into the North Sea and Atlantic, and the rest fo the time the crews lived ashore in barracks.
Anyone have any light to shed how other people who built shorter-range ships (France, Italy) addressed this issue?
Mitch
Most US ships tended to be larger than their British equivalents, partly for reasons of comfort, but also because the Americans expected to steam further between refuellings than the British, who had their vast network of bases and harbours dotted all over the world. Hence, they expected to carry more fuel. This is paerticularly shown with battleships - US battleships tended to vastly outrange their British equivalents.
As an aside, German battleships of the Great War tended to be smaller than their Royal Navy counterparts for a similar reason: whilst a British battleship might sail round the Empire, and the crew would largely live aboard, the German ships were essentailly only manned when they made sorties from their bases in Germany into the North Sea and Atlantic, and the rest fo the time the crews lived ashore in barracks.
Anyone have any light to shed how other people who built shorter-range ships (France, Italy) addressed this issue?
Mitch
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sid guttridge
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Another Question
Were German destroyers successful at attacking Allied subs[/b]
German destroyer sucesses against uboats
TED,
if my brain didn´t completely left me, the German destroyers didn´t sunk a lonely Allied sub during the war.
Greetings
Peter K.
if my brain didn´t completely left me, the German destroyers didn´t sunk a lonely Allied sub during the war.
Greetings
Peter K.
That's amazing
Not even a Soviet sub?
That's not accurate. From the british navy archives
"HMS Starfish sailed from Blyth for patrol on 5th January 1940. Nothing of note occurred until the 9th when the submarine sighted a German destroyer and decided to attack. The submarine dived and made her tubes ready. A communication problem caused the first attack to fail and as the submarine returned to periscope depth to carry out another attack she was rocked by an explosion. Further depth charge attacks forced Starfish to settle on the bottom and wait for the enemy to move on. At 1815 Starfish returned to the surface, all confidential documents were destroyed and the submarine scuttled. The ship’s company were picked up by the waiting ships and taken as prisoners of war."
And that was just a quick look, this sub scuttled itself after a destroyer attack, I'm sure there are others. Another issue, many subs are lost in which the cause is unknown, so no definative statement can be made regarding how many British subs were lost to German Destroyers.
"HMS Starfish sailed from Blyth for patrol on 5th January 1940. Nothing of note occurred until the 9th when the submarine sighted a German destroyer and decided to attack. The submarine dived and made her tubes ready. A communication problem caused the first attack to fail and as the submarine returned to periscope depth to carry out another attack she was rocked by an explosion. Further depth charge attacks forced Starfish to settle on the bottom and wait for the enemy to move on. At 1815 Starfish returned to the surface, all confidential documents were destroyed and the submarine scuttled. The ship’s company were picked up by the waiting ships and taken as prisoners of war."
And that was just a quick look, this sub scuttled itself after a destroyer attack, I'm sure there are others. Another issue, many subs are lost in which the cause is unknown, so no definative statement can be made regarding how many British subs were lost to German Destroyers.