Landing a Storch on Admiral Scheer?

German Kriegsmarine 1935-1945.

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Landing a Storch on Admiral Scheer?

Postby Srgt Rock » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:23 am

In 1942 as the German major surface fleet units were being restricted into the Arctic waters, there was a growing movement to get more out of their embarked air units. Adm Carls spoke about landing a Fi 156 Storch on the deck of Admiral Scheer. My question to all is, was this ever tried and if so, was it necessary to increase the landing space aft of the Bruno turret?
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Postby macbue » Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:28 am

I guess it would be possible, the minimum flying speed of the Storch was about 28 knots and the maximum speed of the Admiral Scheer was about 28 knots. If there would be a rather flat space to land on the storch would be able to land like a helicopter.
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Postby phylo_roadking » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:37 pm

No harder at all than that original landing or an RNAS Sopwith on a towed lighter at flank speed in WWI, and probably a LOT easier. The Storch would have a decent oleomatic undercarriage and its wing slats as well as reducing its stall speed right down would give the pilot control right down at that speed.
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Postby Paul Lakowski » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:13 am

But could it take off again?
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Postby phylo_roadking » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:20 pm

Anyone know a Storch's actual stall speed?
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Postby Tiornu » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:35 pm

What was the ship that served in the Storch deck-landing trials, and what arrangements were made?
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Postby phylo_roadking » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:29 pm

Paul - depending on that actual stall speed, its not impossible that the combined wind-speed from a ship steaming into a strong oncoming wind COULD be higher than the stall speed and thus generate enough lift for the Storch with its wing slots etc.! That's MATHEMATICALLY - I can't see ANY pilot wanting to be basically blown off a ship @rse-over-t1t in real life!
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Postby phylo_roadking » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:01 pm

Okay - the Storch's stall speed is a lowly 25 mph...and the Scheer's top speed is 28.5 kts - so damn close but the landing COULD just about be done. But it would need a hell of a pilot, or some sort of arrestor so he could come in slightly faster...'cos I found some comments from Kermit Weeks on flying the Storch and its not a controllable stall with an easy recovery, not at that speed - its a sudden and catastrophic stall.
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Postby Srgt Rock » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:36 am

The ship that a storch actually landed on was the air landing ship Grille after her landing deck modification. (I saw landing trials on the Dicovery Channel series Wings!)

They had bungie cord arrester lines but they didn't use them in the clips I saw. I also saw a storch pitch left and crash in the sea when encountering an unfarvorable wind gust.

Take-offs from Grille were assisted with a bungie cord.

I have had another thought about landing a storch or a Fi167 on any ship. With the low stall speed of either plane, why not have the plane fly into the wind and have the ship move underneeth the plane! This would require only a small wooden landing deck on the bow of said ship and take-offs could be much easier.

What do you think?
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Postby phylo_roadking » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:48 am

why not have the plane fly into the wind and have the ship move underneeth the plane


Well, technically that's what happened on early carriers with no catapault assistance, the carrier picked up speed to push the aircraft into an oncoming wind, thus adding its speed to the windspeed, and THEN the speed the aircraft itslf could get over a short distance - all adding up to the speed at which the airflow was passing over the aircraft's wing and control surfaces.

But I've had another thought I'll follow up on another thread, cos I'll want to spread it wide.
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Postby phylo_roadking » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:09 am

Okay, given this.....

Image

and after all, this....

Image

!!!

....was the Storch light enough aginst the lift provided by its wings and slotted flaps to be "streamed" like a kite???

:wink:
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Postby crolick » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:59 pm

phylo_roadking wrote:Okay - the Storch's stall speed is a lowly 25 mph...and the Scheer's top speed is 28.5 kts - so damn close.
Not so close as you think phylo :wink:
28,5 kts = 32,78 mph :[]

PS. Knots are Nautical miles per hour
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Postby phylo_roadking » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:11 pm

That's GOOD! means the Scheer is a bit FASTER than the Storch's stall speed, means the pilot isn't teetering on the edge of the stall as he "catches up" on the ship.
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Postby Tiornu » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:48 pm

During the Battle of River Plate, Graf Spee's top speed was down to 24 knots. But presumably in this scenario, Scheer would be more regularly serviced.
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Postby Paul Lakowski » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:00 pm

Landing on ground Storch required 26m length of ground from touch down to halt and 70 meter grass to take off. I recall reading somewhere 60 meters of road to take off. If you added strengthing for catapult arresting gear and tail hooks, you may seriously cut into other performance?

From this site
http://www.storch.no/thestorch.htm



Technical data for Fi 156 C-2 (performance at 1240 kg take-off weight)

Wingspan: 14,25 m
Length: 9,90 m
Height: 3,05 m
Wing area: 26 m2
Wing loading (at 1275 kg): 49 kg/m2
Weight/power ratio (at 1275 kg): 5,3 kg/hp
Empty weight: 930 kg
Maximum take-off weight: 1320 kg
Minimum speed (full flaps): 32 mph (51 km/h)
Cruise speed (1800 RPM): 87 mph (140 km/h)
Maximum speed (at sea level): 109 mph (175 km/h)
Maximum dive speed: 165 mph (265 km/h)
Take-off distance (short cut grass): 70 m
Maximum rate of climb (10 degrees flaps): 942 ft/min
Time to 3281 ft (1000 m): 3 min. 54 sek.
Service ceiling: 19.358 ft
Range (at 1800 RPM): 205 miles (330 km)
Landing distance (from 50 ft): 125 m
Landing distance (from touch down): 26 m
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