What if the Bismark returned?

[Troy Tempest]

I for one have never understood why the Bismark didn't pursue the Prince of Wales and sink her! The PoW was making smoke and trying to escape, surely the Bismark and the mighty Prinz E could have gone after her and sunk her. After that, both ships could have returned to the Reich for repairs and made ready for sortie #2. Imagine the propaganda coup that would have come with not only sinking the flagship of the RN, but also its most modern and new battleship as well?

After Knights Cross's all round and repairs, the Dynamic Duo of the Kriegsmarine could have ventured forth again, mayber even teaming up with the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. What havoc could they have wreaked!

Troy
07.42 - Tuesday, Sydney

[phylo_roadking]

From what little I remember, they encountered Hood and POW when making their break through the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap, to use the modern naval term. They weren't interested in destroying RN vessels, but in getting loose into the Atlantic as a commerce raider. If theyd turned to chase, theyd have lost the opportunity to break out, as they were working under the (correct) assumption that The Home Fleet had been broken up into packet-sized units to patrol the four channels.

After Hood and POW they only encountered the Norfolk and Suofflk before the aircraft from the Glorious damaged her. They had successfully managed to get into the North Atlantic by choosing not to pursue.

[Andy H]

I for one have never understood why the Bismark didn't pursue the Prince of Wales and sink her! The PoW was making smoke and trying to escape, surely the Bismark and the mighty Prinz E could have gone after her and sunk her. After that, both ships could have returned to the Reich for repairs and made ready for sortie #2. Imagine the propaganda coup that would have come with not only sinking the flagship of the RN, but also its most modern and new battleship as well?

After Knights Cross's all round and repairs, the Dynamic Duo of the Kriegsmarine could have ventured forth again, mayber even teaming up with the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. What havoc could they have wreaked!

Troy
07.42 - Tuesday, Sydney

If after sinking the POW why would they return home, unless your expecting them to recieve more damage?

Also what a huge assumption about wrecking havoc. Could just as easily sya that they got caught by the Home Fleet and were decimated or were sunk by British subs lurking in the North Sea.

Regards

[Troy Tempest]

From what little I remember, they encountered Hood and POW when making their break through the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap, to use the modern naval term. They weren't interested in destroying RN vessels, but in getting loose into the Atlantic as a commerce raider. If theyd turned to chase, theyd have lost the opportunity to break out. They had successfully managed to get into the North Atlantic by choosing not to pursue.

True phylo_roadking, but the fact was that they had combat forced on them, and that they destroyed the Hood very quickly and damaged the PoW badly enough for it to choose to attempt flight rather than fight. Having damaged the PoW, if they chose to pursue and sink the her, it wouldn't have taken days or even hours, I don't think. The PoW would have been a dangerous foe at some future time for the Kriegsmarine, and the Germans weren't likely to get another such favourable opportunity in the future to sink Englands latest battleship.

I appreciate that the primary role for the Bismark and Prinz Eugen was to engage in commerce raiding, I just feel the opportunity to sink not one but two capital ships is a rare one, and should have been seized. Even if they had to return for minor repairs and replenishment, and that the next opportunity may not be so easy to break out, the propaganda value of such a victory would have been immeasurable (IMHO!). The mood after the sinking of the Hood in England was very glum, imagine how demoralising having both ships sunk and the Bismark successfully returning home would have been.

Troy
14.10 - tue, sydney

[Tiornu]

The only way the Germans were likely to sink PoW was via torpedoes; Bismarck herself showed how difficult it could be to sink a battleship by gunfire alone. During Vian's attack, a flotilla of destroyers got absurdly close to Bismarck--just a couple thousand yards?--and the rough conditions resulted in zero hit.
The Germans had a particular mission, one that could be thwarted by even one hit in the right place. The Germans knew this quite well, even without the historical example they themselves were about to become. So the risks of pursuing PoW distinctly outweighed the likely benefits.

[phylo_roadking]

Also, remember the PoW did not "attempt flight" it broke off the engagement due to damage. When this damage was repaired as much as possible she took up the chase again.

As the positions of the rest of the dispersed Home Fleet was unknown, JUST the units she had had or was due to have contact with, following the PoW would have both lost the Bismarck the chance to break into the Atlantic, risked further damage, certainly risked the Prinz Eugen - and thats just in engaging the PoW, They ran the risk of running into the rest of Home Fleet. When you see an opponent at sea breaking off engagament in one of the most heavily policed sea lanes in the world, you have to wonder what he's heading TOWARDS, not just away from lol

[Troy Tempest]

Fair call phylo!

Troy
02.14 - wed, sydney

[Andy H]

I would have turned on POW (which momentarily had just 1 of its 10 guns working at the point it turned away under smokescreen) and then headed for the Norwegian coast at 30knots! Even if I had to beech myself on Spitzbergen to get away it would have been worth it

Destroying another RN BB would have achieved nothing of strategic note, whilst the potential loss of the Bismarck in such an effort would have far more wide ranging effects.

Regards

[Troy Tempest]

But Andy, surely the HUGE propaganda value and morale boost for Germany and morale blow for England would have made it worth the risk? You don't need to build a giant battleship like the Bismarck to sink merchantmen, it is by name and nature a battleship. I realize that if it had been sunk after sinking the PoW, then the Kriegsmarine could not afford to lose one battleship for every two RN battleships sunk, however, it's a war, and you're not going to have too many opportunities like the one that was presented to the Bismarck after the Hood was sunk. I know I'm not an Admiral and I have no naval training, but if I was the skipper of the Bismarck, I'd have definately gone for it, and then raced for home or Norway for repairs.

Troy

[phylo_roadking]

The only point of course being....this was against Lutjens orders! If he had turned around at THAT point, he would have 1/ NOT completed his breakout into the Atlantic and 2/ NOT pursued a campaign of commerce raiding. I'd say the poor bugger was only thinking of his own hide! Remember the diminutive size of the KM as against the Imperial Fleet meant there were a LOT of recalled flag officers for a prospective command like that...the KM was the worst case of dead mens' shoes than any peacetime navy.

Regarding capital ships being used for commerce rading - the Graf Spee's actually-quite successful career as a commerce raider indicated this was a more practical use for individual German naval units when direct fleet actions they'd have come off worst like at Narvik, the only bright spot in the whole Norway mess for the Allies. Also, the KM was also just attempting to emulate their commerce radinging successes of WWI, where surface raiders and armed merchantmen played a vital role alongside the early U-boats.

[Andy H]

But Andy, surely the HUGE propaganda value and morale boost for Germany and morale blow for England would have made it worth the risk? You don't need to build a giant battleship like the Bismarck to sink merchantmen, it is by name and nature a battleship. I realize that if it had been sunk after sinking the PoW, then the Kriegsmarine could not afford to lose one battleship for every two RN battleships sunk, however, it's a war, and you're not going to have too many opportunities like the one that was presented to the Bismarck after the Hood was sunk. I know I'm not an Admiral and I have no naval training, but if I was the skipper of the Bismarck, I'd have definately gone for it, and then raced for home or Norway for repairs.

Troy

Hi Troy

You mention the propoganda angle in regards to the RN losing 2 BB's, but equally the reverse is also true.

Your posts are made with hindsight.
Did Lutjens know how badly the PoW was damaged?
Did he know if other RN units lay just over the horizon?
Could he guarantee another success without seriously damaging his ship or the PE, or compromise his mission?

Regards

[phylo_roadking]

And lets not forget the Bismarck had just been in contact with TWO of the RN's capital ships and bested them - as far as Lutjens' was concerned from HIS perspective he probably HAD broken through the RN blocking forces in the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap so why on earth turn back?