FRENCH and SPANISH navies?

[phylo_roadking]

All, can anyone tell me or give me a list of what FRENCH naval vessels were left to the Vichy French Navy after Oran? And which were in the Atlantic ports? Also, can anyone give me information or route me to info about the SPANISH Navy during the war years?

phylo

[San Martin]

Also, can anyone give me information or route me to info about the SPANISH Navy during the war years?

phylo

Regarding Spanish Capital Class Ships:

España Class

Spain's 1908 Navy Law called for the building of of a balanced, modern fleet to replace the the obsolete survivors of the fleet so hopelessly outmatched in 1898. Three dreadnoughts were planned and built by an Anglo-Spanish consortium.

Displacing less than 16,000 tonnes at full load, the España class were the smallest dreadnoughts ever built. The were armed with eight 12-inch guns in four turrets, with the midships turrets echeloned. The British mounting, unlike contemporary German designs, allowed loading while while trained at any angle and <consequently> provided a faster rate of fire.

Armour protection was poor by dreadnought standards: a main belt only 8 inches thick, tapering to 3 inches at the bow and 4 inches aft. Anti-torpedo bulkheads were 1.5 inches thick. España logged 20.5 knots on trials, herParsons turbines delivering 22,260 shp with forced draught. In service, actual speed was a knot less.

España, Alfonso XIII, and Jaime I were laid down at at Ferrol and launched in 1912, 1913 and 1914 respectively. The Great war slowed construction to a crawl since much of the material was supposed to come from Britain. España and Alfonso XIII were completed in 1914-15, but Jaime I did not go to Sea until 1917 and only five of her guns had been delivered by mid-1919. A planned class of 21,000 ton dreadnoughts (Victoria Eugenia class) with eight 15 inch guns was abandoned as the World War ruled out further construction.

España was wrecked in 1923 on a reef near Cape Tres Forcas, Morocco during heavy fog. Salvage proved impossible, although her 12 inch guns were retrieved for instillation in coastal batteries. Alfonso XIII was was re-named España in 1931. Lying in Ferrol when the Civil war broke out out, she was captured by the Nationalists and sank off Cape Penas after striking a mine. Jaime I remianed in government hands, but was damaged by air attack at Malaga in 1936. She was wrecked by an explosion while under repair at Cartagena in 1937 and so badly damaged that she was scrapped in 1939.

España Class Data:

Displacement, Standard: 15,452 tons

Displacement, full load: 15,700 tons

Length overall: 459 feet (140m)

Beam: 78 feet 9 inches (24m)

Design draught: 25 foot 6 inches (7.8m)

Complement: 854


Class: España, Alfonso XIII, Jaime I Completed 1913-21


Armament: Eight 12-in guns (4x2), 20x4-in guns

Machinery: Steam turbines, 15,500 shp, 4 shafts, 19.5 knots

Armour:

Belt: 8in

Upper belt: 6in

Deck: 1.5 in

Barbettes: 10 in

Conning tower: 10 in.



Source: Jane's Battleships of the 20th Century (1996 Harper Collins Publishers), pages 84-5. My scanner is busted, so I can't scan the pictures, soz. Like the text said, two of the ship were on opp. sides during the Civil war, but after that it looks like after that (1939) there were no more capital ships serving with Falangista Spain.

From Jane's Fighting Ships of WWII (WWII edition reprint) we have several cruisers:

Canarias, single 1st Class Cruiser.

Galicia class of Cruisers, inc. Galicia, Almirante Cervera and Miguel de Cervantes.

Light Cruisers:

Mendez Nunez

Navarra

Destroyers: 9 Oquendo class, 13 Churraca Class, 2 Alava class (being buit at the time)

Torpedo boats: 9 Audaz Class (building) 3 Alsedo class.

Minlayers , 2 Obs. TB, Nos 14 and 17, and 2 modern plus 4 from the Republican era.

Misc. Gunboats and sloops. PM me for more info if you need it.

Submarines 2 of the C class, 3 of the D class.


I know it's not exactly about the Navy (in general), but it was the best I had to hand atm

I did look up the French section in the same book, but I could not be bothered to look up every single class to see what happend to each ship within it's class, just that the Richelieu class (the class ship Rich.) ended up at Oran. French navies are not my specialisation, but I'm pretty sure that the British made sure that there were no French ships in the Atlantic after raids such as Toulon (not in the Atlantic, but you get what I mean about neutralising the Vichy French navy being a top priority).

I have just now in this part of our forum plugged the KBismark site as being very useful, well because it is maintained by a Spaniard with a few Spanish posters that can speak English, I reccomend that perhaps you might post your question also there (in the off topic section, but have a look for yourself, plenty of technical/research questions in there already):

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/index.php

PS, no time to spell-check properly, excuse me in advance, mejores saludos, L

[Tiornu]

Some time in the next couple years, you'll probably see an article in Warship International that tells you everything you wanted to know about the Espanas.
The raid on Mers el Kebir destroyed one battleship, one auxiliary patrol vessel, and...that's all I can recall. A couple other battleships were heavily damaged, along with a destroyer or two. It didn't really accomplish all that much except for killing a lot of sailors and making Hitler happy.

[San Martin]

Hey Tiornu! One of the exellent posters from KBismark.com

The Espanas were a bit boring though, eh?

I'd better stay out of the old politics on here, it looks contentious to me already from the few threads looked at. Anyhoo, I remember that the recieved British view was that they were (metaphorically) weeping into their rangefinders and torpedo bombsites (when engaging the French Navy), but then again as you imply 1200 dead French seamen was pretty bad. A graphic illustration of the oftentimes ambivelent relationship between the UK and France (see below how the different UK naval comanders handled things). Then again having read the Book "Petain's Crime", I have very little respect for Vichy France, in particular the voluntary deportation of Jews.



Mers El-Kabir as quoted by you above:

OPERATION CATAPULT - MERS-EL-KEBIR - 3RD JUL 1940

Based on an article by Max Johnson

Operation Catapult aimed to secure the immobilisation of the French Naval Fleet lest it should fall into German hands. Although not a combined operation this naval action is included in this website because it provides useful background to British concerns about Vichy French military resources and foreign held territories. These concerns subsequently resulted in actions involving Combined Operations such as those in North Africa (Torch) and the Litani River.

~ Background ~

After the surrender of the French to the Germans on June 22 1940 Britain stood alone. Most of Europe had been completely overrun and the only thing that prevented the continuation of Germany’s expansion into the U.K. was the English Channel. The terms of the French capitulation were unusual. The Germans allowed the new administration in Vichy, and its leader Marshall Petain, to keep 2/5th of their land. As well as this they were also allowed to continue to administer their overseas colonies and control their navy. This was a particular worry to the British since they believed, with some justification, that the neutrality given to the French by the Axis powers could not be relied upon. Consequently they decided to act on their own initiative and to silence the French fleet by any means at their disposal. After the signing of the armistice many French naval units had fled France to avoid capture. The biggest single concentration of the French fleet was at the port of Mers-El-Kebir in French Algeria. Early in July Churchill ordered "Force H", under Vice-Admiral Somerville to the area in order to secure the French squadron for the British.

~ Planning & Preparations ~

A number of senior British commanders, notably Somerville himself, opposed the plan. They argued that "Operation Catapult", the name now given to the planned engagement, would turn French public opinion totally against the British. They also argued that the French fleet could resist with force and cripple the Royal Navy, which was already spread very thinly due to wartime commitments.

Churchill and his War Cabinet ignored these concerns and in the early hours of July 2 Sommerville received the following text to be sent to the French Admiral Gensoul:

"It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives;

(a) sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians.

(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.

If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.

(c) Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.

If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.

Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German or Italian hands."

Admiral Gensoul replied in writing that in no circumstances would his ships fall into German or Italian hands and, ominously, that force would be met with force. The distress felt by the British Admiral and his senior staff was evident in the exchanges of signals with London. The ships they were about to fire on were manned by men who had been their allies just 10 days earlier. Understanding the difficulties Churchill instructed the Admiralty to send the following message to Somerville;

"You are charged with one of the most disagreeable and difficult tasks that a British Admiral has ever been faced with, but we have complete confidence in you and rely on you to carry it out relentlessly." The final signal despatched at 6.26 pm read "French ships must comply with our terms, sink themselves or be sunk by you before dark,"... but the action had already started at 5.45 pm.

~ Action ~

"Catapult" commenced on July 3 1940. Early in the day all French warships in British territorial waters were boarded and impounded by the Royal Navy (Codenamed Operation Grasp); this amounted to two Battleships, four Cruisers, eight destroyers, some submarines, and numerous support vessels and smaller craft which had fled when the collapse of France seemed inevitable. This part of the operation went relatively smoothly, however resistance did occur on the French submarine Surcouf when one French sailor and a Royal Naval Rating, were killed and several others injured.

Later in the day "Force H", with H.MS Hood as flagship, drew up outside Mers-El-Kebir. A three-point ultimatum was sent to Admiral Gensoul, the French commander, giving him the following options.

1). Bring out your ships and join the Royal Navy.

2). Take the fleet to a British port with a reduced crew from where they would be repatriated.

3). Sail the fleet to a French, West Indian, or an American port and decommission the fleet there.

Gensoul decided not to act on this and, in an effort to buy time and ready his ships to fight, he opened a dialogue with the British officer sent to communicate with him. However Somerville soon became aware of Gensoul’s vacillation and a fourth option was added to the ultimatum offered by the chief negotiator, Captain Holland of HMS Ark Royal -<4).> "scuttle your ships where they lie."

At just past 1pm the British decided to act and Swordfish planes from the carrier Ark Royal mined the harbour entrance. This action angered Gensoul who felt the British had acted in bad faith. However, despite the heightened tension outwardly all remained calm until 4:46 pm when Somerville received a communiqué from the Admiralty which considerably raised the stakes. It stated that Somerville had "to settle matters quickly" as French reinforcements were on their way. Somerville wasted no time. At 5:15 pm he signalled to the Battle cruiser Dunkerque that if his proposals were not met by 5:30 pm he would have to act and destroy their ships. The French failed to respond. Captain Holland’s negotiations had failed. Action stations sounded as the first salvo from the Hood’s eight inch guns smashed into the side of the French battleship Bretange causing fatal damage which consigned it to the depths along with 977 of its crew.

For fifteen minutes "H Force’s" guns ranged down on the fleet and the harbour causing death and destruction. The French had been badly mauled. Apart from the sinking of the Bretagne, the Dunkerque was crippled with two hundred dead and many injured, the destroyer Provence had run aground and Mogador was badly damaged. Gensoul then signalled a cease-fire to which Somerville replied "unless I see your ships sinking I shall open fire again." As a precaution Somerville then pulled "H Force" out of the range of the French guns. He assumed that his mines would stop any breakout by the remaining French ships. However the French battleship Strasborg saw an opportunity and at full speed it picked its way through the wrecks and mines of the harbour and escaped Mers-El-Kebir. An immediate pursuit by the Hood along with aircraft from the Ark Royal began. However Somerville felt the absence of these vessels left the remaining blockading ships too vulnerable and the pursuit was soon called off. The Strasbourg made it to Toulon and back into Vichy French hands. Despite this setback the French squadron had effectively been neutralised but at high cost in human lives.

Further along the coast at Alexandria a second British battle force had assembled to confront a substantial part of the remaining French navy in the southern Mediterranean. This time the British commander at Alexandria, Admiral Cunningham, was able to open a successful dialogue with his friend, and French counterpart, Admiral Godfroy. Despite orders from Churchill for results to be achieved by nightfall, he held the negotiations over till the next day, July 4, and a settlement was reached. Godfroy’s eleven ships were immobilised in Alexandria harbour with the draining of their oil supplies and the handing over of their breech blocks to the French consulate at the port.

~ Outcome ~

The Vichy Government was understandably not happy at the turn of events at Mers-El-Kebir and other ports. The British had killed twelve hundred French sailors who, just two weeks earlier, had been their allies and in addition they seized, immobilised, or sunk a large part of the French navy. Many French citizens who had previously supported the British, felt betrayed and alienated. Petain broke off diplomatic relations with Britain and two days later the French captured three British merchant ships in retaliation. Further skirmishes between the former Allies occurred for the next week the two most notable of which were the bombing of Gibraltar by the French and the torpedoing of the French battleship Richelieu at Dakar.

Despite the animosity from the French, the affair had unexpected results in Britain. It allowed the newly appointed Prime minister, Winston Churchill, to demonstrate that he was the right choice as premier for a country at war. It was his first major war act since gaining power and was seen as a popular move both inside Parliament and in the country more generally. When the action was announced to Parliament there was universal cheering from both sides of the house. Further afield the action had further beneficial implications for Britain. Roosevelt was later to tell Churchill that his decisive action against the French Navy had convinced him that Britain still had the will to fight, even if she was alone.

Ultimately the action at Mers-El-Kebir was a tragedy but the action had served its purpose. The French navy could no longer fall into the hands of the Axis powers and pose a threat to Britain at a time when she was most vulnerable.

~ Summary of Action ~

Allied Forces: Sea - Force H - HMS Hood (Battleship) Vice- Admiral, Sir James Somerville. Flag, HMS Resolution (Battleship), HMS Valiant (Battleship), HMS Ark Royal (Carrier), HMS Arethusa (Cruiser), HMS Enterprise (Cruiser), HMS Faulkner (Destroyer), HMS Foxhound (Destroyer), HMS Fearless (Destroyer), HMS Forester (Destroyer), HMS Foresight (Destroyer), HMS Escort??? (Destroyer), HMS Kepple (Destroyer), HMS Active (Destroyer), HMS Wrestler (Destroyer), HMS Vidette (Destroyer), HMS Vortigern (Destroyer), HMS Ark Royals aircraft consisted of: 12 Skuas (800 Squadron), 12 Skuas (803 Squadron), 12 Swordfish (810 Squadron), 9 Swordfish (818 Squadron), 9 Swordfish (820 Squadron).

Vichy French Forces: Sea - Admiral Marcel-Bruno Gensoul, Strasbourg (Battle cruiser), Dunkerque (Battle cruiser), 2nd Battleship Division. Rear- Admiral Bouxin, Provence (Battleship), Bretagne (Battleship), Mogador (Destroyer), Volta (Destroyer), Tigre (Destroyer), Lynx (Destroyer), Kersaint (Destroyer), Le Terrible (Destroyer)
Located to the east of Mers-El-Kebir at the port of Oran were the following French forces. Light Destroyers: 10, Submarines: 6 ( 3 Operational), Assorted smaller ships 13. Land - French Shore Batteries; Fort Santoni: 3x194mm Guns, Gambetta Battery: 4x120mm Guns, Espagnole Battery: 2x75mm Guns, Canastel Battery: 3x240mm Guns.

~ Further Reading ~

A French perspective on the the Vichy French years.

Link below:

Combined Ops.com

[San Martin]

PS, Tiornu, over there I'm called Chel Sea, or something