German Destroyers
Thanks Sam H.
What was the state of anti-submarine warfare tactics and weapons for the Kriegsmarine?
STARFISH
Hello SAM !
I´m sorry, but I can´t agree!
According to my source - the original war diary of the SKL - the British submarine STARFISH was sunk on 9th January 1940 about 40 nm northwest of Helgoland by the German minesweeper "M7" due to a depth charge attack.
"M7" first detected the sub with its S-device and finally sighted the periscope. The crew of the submarine was rescued by the Germans.
"M7" belongs to the modern type 35 minesweepers (682 ts, 18,3 kn, 1-2x10,5cm, 1-2x3,7cm. 2x2cm) and survived the war.
BTW, this class of minesweepers were later called "channel destroyers" ... so you are also right - in a special kind of view!
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
I´m sorry, but I can´t agree!
According to my source - the original war diary of the SKL - the British submarine STARFISH was sunk on 9th January 1940 about 40 nm northwest of Helgoland by the German minesweeper "M7" due to a depth charge attack.
"M7" first detected the sub with its S-device and finally sighted the periscope. The crew of the submarine was rescued by the Germans.
"M7" belongs to the modern type 35 minesweepers (682 ts, 18,3 kn, 1-2x10,5cm, 1-2x3,7cm. 2x2cm) and survived the war.
BTW, this class of minesweepers were later called "channel destroyers" ... so you are also right - in a special kind of view!
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
Ok ... how about this one.
"HMS Splendid left Malta on 17th April 1943 with orders to patrol off Naples and later off the west coast of Corsica. On 21st April the submarine was detected by the German destroyer Hermes, whose depth charge attack forced the submarine to the surface. HMS Splendid was then scuttled by her crew to avoid capture."
Again there a quite a few listed as cause unknown.
"HMS Splendid left Malta on 17th April 1943 with orders to patrol off Naples and later off the west coast of Corsica. On 21st April the submarine was detected by the German destroyer Hermes, whose depth charge attack forced the submarine to the surface. HMS Splendid was then scuttled by her crew to avoid capture."
Again there a quite a few listed as cause unknown.
SPLENDID
Hi again, SAM!
Indeed a clear German success!
Perhaps we should say, a success of a German crew fighting with a former Greek destroyer of a British design and built by a British shipyard!
Some details of the HERMES´ war diary:
21.04.43
since 0700: on the way from Salerno to Pozzuoli for refueling
0838: on position 39°31N14°16,3E with course 260°, 21 kn, sighting of a periscope 10 hm away
0839: sub detected by S-device
0843: first attack with 15 DC (6xWBF, 9xWBD, 35-50m) speed 17 kn
0850: new detection at 12 kn own speed
0855: second attack with 15 DC (WBD, 50-75 m) speed 17 kn
0909: radio report by HERMES about attacking a sub at J6758
0915: third attack broken off, because sub is evaiding, speed 17 kn
0924: forth attack with 13 DC (WBD 90-120m) at 12 kn own speed, detection by S-device at 15 hm, speed 17 kn
0932: sub submerged about 30 hm away
0935: HERMES opened fire, but scored only hits by 3,7 cm AAA
0940: parts of the enemy crew leave their sub, but the rudder of HERMES was jammed now for a short time
After hits by the 12,7 cm main artillery the sub sunk at 0947 astern.
ammunition used: 32x12,7cm, 186x3,7cm, 310x2cm, 90x13,2mm
Only 7 DC were available after the attacks!
The S-device works well down to 2-300 m.
30 men of the sub were rescued (12 by the Italien minesweeper "AS226".
Greetings
Peter K.
Indeed a clear German success!
Perhaps we should say, a success of a German crew fighting with a former Greek destroyer of a British design and built by a British shipyard!
Some details of the HERMES´ war diary:
21.04.43
since 0700: on the way from Salerno to Pozzuoli for refueling
0838: on position 39°31N14°16,3E with course 260°, 21 kn, sighting of a periscope 10 hm away
0839: sub detected by S-device
0843: first attack with 15 DC (6xWBF, 9xWBD, 35-50m) speed 17 kn
0850: new detection at 12 kn own speed
0855: second attack with 15 DC (WBD, 50-75 m) speed 17 kn
0909: radio report by HERMES about attacking a sub at J6758
0915: third attack broken off, because sub is evaiding, speed 17 kn
0924: forth attack with 13 DC (WBD 90-120m) at 12 kn own speed, detection by S-device at 15 hm, speed 17 kn
0932: sub submerged about 30 hm away
0935: HERMES opened fire, but scored only hits by 3,7 cm AAA
0940: parts of the enemy crew leave their sub, but the rudder of HERMES was jammed now for a short time
After hits by the 12,7 cm main artillery the sub sunk at 0947 astern.
ammunition used: 32x12,7cm, 186x3,7cm, 310x2cm, 90x13,2mm
Only 7 DC were available after the attacks!
The S-device works well down to 2-300 m.
30 men of the sub were rescued (12 by the Italien minesweeper "AS226".
Greetings
Peter K.
German destroyers against Allied subs
Ok, ok, SAM, it WAS a German victory ...
... but nevertheless I understood APOTHIS´ question in a more technical way, like "How capable were the German destroyer designs in the antisubmarine role".
(... but perhaps it´s only my lausy English .... )
Trying to answer such a question we would look at the successes - and I can´t find even one of a real German destroyer!
The only fact, that I could found quickly, as the sinking of the Sowjet sub "S4" by the torpedoboat "T33" on 6th January 1945 at the bay of Danzig.
Peter K.
... but nevertheless I understood APOTHIS´ question in a more technical way, like "How capable were the German destroyer designs in the antisubmarine role".
(... but perhaps it´s only my lausy English ....
)Trying to answer such a question we would look at the successes - and I can´t find even one of a real German destroyer!
The only fact, that I could found quickly, as the sinking of the Sowjet sub "S4" by the torpedoboat "T33" on 6th January 1945 at the bay of Danzig.
Peter K.
Peter,
I understand ... it was all in fun, I just found it incredible that not one British Sub was sunk by a German Destroyer ... it appears more RN Subs were sunk by German minesweepers!
Any way, I am by no means an expert in the Kreigsmarine. Just interested and willing to learn. I would not expect to see much German success against RN Subs just as I would not expect to see much success by British Subs against German shipping.
Sam
I understand ... it was all in fun, I just found it incredible that not one British Sub was sunk by a German Destroyer ... it appears more RN Subs were sunk by German minesweepers!
Any way, I am by no means an expert in the Kreigsmarine. Just interested and willing to learn. I would not expect to see much German success against RN Subs just as I would not expect to see much success by British Subs against German shipping.
Sam
successes against subs
SAM,
In fact it is a very interesting topic and it seems really unbelievable, that not one Allied sub was sunk by a destroyer!
But thinking more and more about it, I believe, that I read something of a probably success (of KARL GALSTER ???) against a Sowjet sub some times ago .... unfortunately I cant remember where!
Certainly you are right, that the smaller Germen vessel were much more successful (minesweeper, sub cashers, ....) against subs!
Whenever I found a little time - rarely enough - I´m researching in the history of Otto Pollmann, who is claimed to be the most successfull sub killer with 13 confirmed kills.
Especially I´m trying to identify these subs - unfortunately with very little success!
BTW, anybody out there, who have the war diary of the 22. U-Jagdflottille or of "UJ2210" ?
Well, I would say, that the British successes against the German merchant navy were remarkable!!!
Greetings
Peter K.
In fact it is a very interesting topic and it seems really unbelievable, that not one Allied sub was sunk by a destroyer!
But thinking more and more about it, I believe, that I read something of a probably success (of KARL GALSTER ???) against a Sowjet sub some times ago .... unfortunately I cant remember where!
Certainly you are right, that the smaller Germen vessel were much more successful (minesweeper, sub cashers, ....) against subs!
Whenever I found a little time - rarely enough - I´m researching in the history of Otto Pollmann, who is claimed to be the most successfull sub killer with 13 confirmed kills.
Especially I´m trying to identify these subs - unfortunately with very little success!
BTW, anybody out there, who have the war diary of the 22. U-Jagdflottille or of "UJ2210" ?
Well, I would say, that the British successes against the German merchant navy were remarkable!!!
Greetings
Peter K.
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Romanian destroyers
Hello SID !
Indeed you are right!
After a quick search I found the following Romanian destroyer successes against Sowjet submarines:
- in July 1941 one sub ( M54 or M45 ) by REGELE FERDINAND
- on 7th July 1943 M31 by MARASESTI
Greetings
Peter K.
Indeed you are right!
After a quick search I found the following Romanian destroyer successes against Sowjet submarines:
- in July 1941 one sub ( M54 or M45 ) by REGELE FERDINAND
- on 7th July 1943 M31 by MARASESTI
Greetings
Peter K.
mine warface
Hello SAM !
Traditionally Germany belongs to the leading countrys in mine warface, both in WWI and WWII, mainly because of the surrounding relatively shallow waters.
A remarkable design feature of nearly every German warship was the capability of carrying and laying mines, f.e. destroyers up to 60!
The Germans used mines not only in a defensively role, but also very extensively in an offensive way, f.e. by the destroyers in winter 1939/40.
Among other types (TMA, TMB, TMC and SMA for subs, LMA and LMB for aircrafts) the followings main types were used:
EMC - standard contact mine
weight 1150 kg, explosive 250 kg
EMD - smaller standard contact mine
weight 900 kg, explosive 150 kg
EMF - standard magnetic mine
weight 1100 kg, explosive 350 kg
UMA - contact mine against subs
weight 810 kg, explosives 30 kg
UMB - contact mine against subs
weight about 800 kg, explosive 40 kg
Greetings
Peter K.
Traditionally Germany belongs to the leading countrys in mine warface, both in WWI and WWII, mainly because of the surrounding relatively shallow waters.
A remarkable design feature of nearly every German warship was the capability of carrying and laying mines, f.e. destroyers up to 60!
The Germans used mines not only in a defensively role, but also very extensively in an offensive way, f.e. by the destroyers in winter 1939/40.
Among other types (TMA, TMB, TMC and SMA for subs, LMA and LMB for aircrafts) the followings main types were used:
EMC - standard contact mine
weight 1150 kg, explosive 250 kg
EMD - smaller standard contact mine
weight 900 kg, explosive 150 kg
EMF - standard magnetic mine
weight 1100 kg, explosive 350 kg
UMA - contact mine against subs
weight 810 kg, explosives 30 kg
UMB - contact mine against subs
weight about 800 kg, explosive 40 kg
Greetings
Peter K.
German antisubmarine weapons
Hello Apothis !
First, I would say, that Germany was the leading country in developpment of underwater detecting devices!
The passive devices - in general called GHG-device - were first tested on board of the Italian submarines (!!!) PIETRO MICA, TORRICELLI and DELFINO between 1928 and 1930. With this equipment of ELAC the first acoustic underwater attack against a destroyer was made!
In 1933 another GHG-device by ELAC was tested onboard of a Japanese submarine, which could detected successfully a destroyer 10 nm away!
Also the Finnish sub CV707 was used for trials!
Since 1935 every German sub was equipped with an GHG-device!
A destroyer running at medium or high speed could detect a submerged sub also running at high speed at about 700 m. Another example is the cruiser PRINZ EUGEN, which detected HOOD and PRINCE OF WALES at a distance of about 20 nm with its GHG-device!
Later German subs could detect single ships at 20 km, convoys at 100 km, but only under good circumstances!
Moreover there was a NHG-device, which could detect an incoming torpedo! A destroyer running at high speed could detect such a fish at a distance of about 2000 m!
The active devices were developped since 1935 and the first one called PERIPHON was ready in 1937. It was only tested by the navy onboard U26 and sold to the Netherlands (subs O19 and newer), Denmark, Sweden, Russia and Finnland. The second one called ULTRAMETER was offered in January 1939 for the Yugoslav destroyers LJUBLJANA, BEOGRAD and ZABGREB, but also for subs. Two of these devices were sold to Russia in 1941.
The famous S-device was the standard active device. Trials were made in 1937 onboard of the small shipp LABOE, one of the first warships was SAAR.
Sub chasers received first the SH-device and then mainly the S/KDB-device with a range of about 1000 m since 1942.
It seems, that especially destroyer had a low priority in equipping with acoustic devices, f.e. FRIEDRICH IHN received the GHG-device between July anf August 1940 and its S_device between January anf May 1940!
BTW, the GHG-device of HERMES was inoperational at the sinking of SPLENDID!
German Destroyers usually could handle the "medium antisubmarine equipment", consisting of 4 depth charge throwers at the ship sides and two more at the stern. Until 1939 only 18 DC were carried, increasing to about 30 onboard of Z33 in 1945 and about 40 onboard of HERMES in 1943.
The following types were used:
WBF:
weight: 139 kg
explosive: 60 kg
detonation depth: 15, 25, 35, 45, 60 or 75 m (minimum 6 m)
speed: 2,23 m/s
minimum distance: 30 m
WBG:
weight: 180 kg
explosive: 60 kg
detonation depth: 20, 35, 50, 70, 90 or 120 m (minimum 6 m)
speed: 3,5 m/s
minimum distance: 30 m
WBD
WBH
Greetings
Peter K.
First, I would say, that Germany was the leading country in developpment of underwater detecting devices!
The passive devices - in general called GHG-device - were first tested on board of the Italian submarines (!!!) PIETRO MICA, TORRICELLI and DELFINO between 1928 and 1930. With this equipment of ELAC the first acoustic underwater attack against a destroyer was made!
In 1933 another GHG-device by ELAC was tested onboard of a Japanese submarine, which could detected successfully a destroyer 10 nm away!
Also the Finnish sub CV707 was used for trials!
Since 1935 every German sub was equipped with an GHG-device!
A destroyer running at medium or high speed could detect a submerged sub also running at high speed at about 700 m. Another example is the cruiser PRINZ EUGEN, which detected HOOD and PRINCE OF WALES at a distance of about 20 nm with its GHG-device!
Later German subs could detect single ships at 20 km, convoys at 100 km, but only under good circumstances!
Moreover there was a NHG-device, which could detect an incoming torpedo! A destroyer running at high speed could detect such a fish at a distance of about 2000 m!
The active devices were developped since 1935 and the first one called PERIPHON was ready in 1937. It was only tested by the navy onboard U26 and sold to the Netherlands (subs O19 and newer), Denmark, Sweden, Russia and Finnland. The second one called ULTRAMETER was offered in January 1939 for the Yugoslav destroyers LJUBLJANA, BEOGRAD and ZABGREB, but also for subs. Two of these devices were sold to Russia in 1941.
The famous S-device was the standard active device. Trials were made in 1937 onboard of the small shipp LABOE, one of the first warships was SAAR.
Sub chasers received first the SH-device and then mainly the S/KDB-device with a range of about 1000 m since 1942.
It seems, that especially destroyer had a low priority in equipping with acoustic devices, f.e. FRIEDRICH IHN received the GHG-device between July anf August 1940 and its S_device between January anf May 1940!
BTW, the GHG-device of HERMES was inoperational at the sinking of SPLENDID!
German Destroyers usually could handle the "medium antisubmarine equipment", consisting of 4 depth charge throwers at the ship sides and two more at the stern. Until 1939 only 18 DC were carried, increasing to about 30 onboard of Z33 in 1945 and about 40 onboard of HERMES in 1943.
The following types were used:
WBF:
weight: 139 kg
explosive: 60 kg
detonation depth: 15, 25, 35, 45, 60 or 75 m (minimum 6 m)
speed: 2,23 m/s
minimum distance: 30 m
WBG:
weight: 180 kg
explosive: 60 kg
detonation depth: 20, 35, 50, 70, 90 or 120 m (minimum 6 m)
speed: 3,5 m/s
minimum distance: 30 m
WBD
WBH
Greetings
Peter K.
Thanks Everyone
I found the information on Destroyers very useful.
destroyers
I´m glad, that you found the details interesting!
Greetings
Peter K.
Greetings
Peter K.