Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
phylo_roadking
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by phylo_roadking »

Carl, while Zahir Khan's Afghanistan was in the run up to WWII and during the war slightly less than purely Neutral...if not as "Neutral but aligned" as, say, Spain or Vichy...it would certainly have been as much of a hotbed of espionage for EVERY nation with an interest in the area, just as Lisbon and Portugal were. I'm not sure something as noteworthy as this could escape British or Russian intelligence assets. Germany, Italy and Japan may have had trade agreements etc., but don't forget the Russians had been active in intelligence terms in Afghanistan for almost a hundred and fity years against the British. And certainly AFTER the Revolution too, with the Anglo-Russian wrangling over Bessarabia etc.
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Re: Junkers missions to Japan, etc.....

Post by Florin »

Erich wrote:Sorry friend but there were no heavy Ju 290/390 flights to the orient. It is all a myth !

E
These flights were mentioned in the documentary "The Samurai and the Svastika", shown in the U.S. on History Channel in Fall /Autumn 2003. Overall, the documentary had a lot of original videos and photos and it was very interesting.
I remember a video from a cockpit with White pilots (so they could be only Germans or Italians) flying above the mountains of Afghanistan or Iran. The subject at that point were the flights of the German planes on the route Europe - Japan.
But to give you some credit, the documentary could be wrong in this matter.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

Didn't the Luftwaffe deliver some indian parachutists to Persia in 1941 or 42
Would that not have been in Ju290/390
There was a Ju-90 with Luftwaffe codes GF+GE which flew in Iraq regularly in 1941. I seem to recall Subhas Chandra Bose was met by Abwher in the Khyber pass and yes some German trained Indian parachutists were dropped into Afghanistan.

Also I recall one of the Italian SM-75RT flights stopped over in Kabul.

As I recall Horst Zoeller mentioned to me in 2005 that DLH flights to Ningxia (inner Mongolia west of Beijing - called Tsitshar) flew from Bulgaria. More recently, I read from another source that they departed Konstanza.

A reference appears in a British intelligence report that a Luftwaffe POW in May 1945 claimed the Me-264 made several flights to Tokyo from lake Nautsi in Northern Finland. This makes some sense because the Me-264 required a prodigious 2,400 metre runway.

In February 1944 former Deutsche Luft Hansa pilot Luftwaffe Flugkapitan Rudolf Mayr was placed in charge of the Manchurian flight operation.

Trial flights began with Ju-290A-5 werke # J900170 Luftwaffe code KR+LA. It adopted a civil code for DLH operations to Ninghsia, China. This aircraft also had KG200 codes 9V+DH and was destroyed by air raids at Reichlin in 1945. It’s fuel capacity was increased and for long range operations, MTOW was increased from the Ju-290’s standard 41.3 tons to 45 tons.

In March 1944 three other Ju290 aircraft were converted for flights to China. These were Ju-290A-9 werke # J900183 Luftwaffe code KR+LN. From February 1944 this aircraft became T9+VK. It was attacked on the ground at Finsterwalde in April 1944 and scrapped at Travenmunde in September 1944.

Also Ju-290A-9 werke # J900182 Luftwaffe code KR+LN. From February 1944 this aircraft became T9+UK. This aircraft was lost whilst on the ground refueling to straffing fire by four Soviet flown Hurricanes near the village of Utta, near Astrakhan.

Ju-290 A7 werke # J900185 Luftwaffe code KR+LP was the third conversion to become T9+WK. It was attacked over the southern eastern front in May 1944 and returned from the mission beyond hope of repair.

In December 1944 Ju-290A-3 werke # J900163 Luftwaffe code PI+PQ was converted for a mission to China to carry VIP Ulrich Kessler, but work on the aircraft was interrupted by Allied air raids and the aircraft was blown up in May 1945 to prevent capture.

Odessa was not abandoned until abandoned 10 April 1944 as the 6th Army retreated from a Soviet offensive begun 24 December 1943 onwards reaching Kirov Rog on 22 February 1944. Kiev was abandoned 6 November 1944.

Final thought... Albert Speer wrote after the war about a Ju-390 flight via the Polar route and I believe the date mentioned was 28 March 1945. Plans for Japanese manufacture of the Ju-390 were to be shipped by U-boat after the deal was concluded 28 February 1945. The only U-boat to Japan after this date was U-234. This U-boat suffered an underwater collision with another U-boat in the Kettegat in March 1945 so had to put into Christiansand in March 1945 for repairs. U-234's radio man Wolfgang Hirschfeld wrote in his book Atlantic Farewell that after the collision urgent cargo was offloaded for a proposed flight to Japan.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by jerijerod »

Instead of Luftwaffe Ju's flying to Japan could they have been Lufthansa?
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Re: Long range Luftwaffe.

Post by Simon_G »

behblc wrote:JU-390. Range of 6,000 miles.
ME-264 Range of 9,315 miles , endurance of 45 hours. (but with disappointing ceiling).
J.S>
Correct about the disappointing ceiling, but incorrect about the ranges.

Fuel consumption of the BMW-801D is well known and from other published data about gross weights, empty weight payload and endurance one can conclude the following for the Ju-390:

Ju-390 data: (including 10,000kg payload)
Fuel Weight 28,600kg ( 62,995 lb) 10,500 US gal / 39,740 Litres
Consumption Cruise 275 US gal /hour (1650 litres/hour) @ 1800 rpm & 230 Kt up to 12,000ft altitudes
Estimated Range 7,400 nautical miles (13,760 km) @ long range cruise speed (232 kt)

Regards the Ki-77 flight from Singapore on 7 July 1943, the following ULTRA signal from Berlin dated 7 July 1943 to Kdo.d.Flughafenbereich 6/VI (Airfield Regional Command) at Sarabus, Crimea was intercepted and decrypted:
On 8/7 an allied aircraft will fly via air grid squares 3420, 2560 and 2510 to Sarabus. It is a two engined low wing monoplane, wing span 30 metres, metal fuselage, natural colour, wings grey. The aircraft must not be fired on under any circumstances.
Blechley Park appended the following note: "This presumably refers to undertaking "GOA" in which an aircraft was flying to Sarabus from Tokio via Singapore." (ULTRA signal CX/MSS 2867/T8).

On that same day (7 July 1943) a special Luftwaffe reception committee arrived at Saribus on Ju-290 T9+FK to greet the expected Japanese aircraft. The reception committee also includes an SS staff officer (in black uniform) whom I have yet to identify.

The reception team from Versuchsverband ObdL (later formed into KG200) included (then) Hauptmann Gartenfeld and Oberluetnant Wolfgang Nebel. Oblt Nebel later commanded Sonderkommando Nebel. A German POW captured in April 1944 was reported in a British intelligence report of May 1944 citing a series of Me-264 flights from Petsamo, Finland to Tokyo.

Armaments Minister Albert Speer recorded after the war in his memoirs that a Ju-390 made at least one flight to Tokyo "via the polar route" at the hands of civil test pilots.

Nebel was connected with flights from Petsamo and had previously been closely associated with Oberst Theodor Rowhel of ObdL on long range missions.

The Me-264 was officially retired from test flying at Lechfeld in August 1943, refitted with BMW-801D, was equipped by Flugkapitan Vogel of Eprobungskommando E-4 at Reichlin with long range navigation equipment and disappeared from Lechfeld until March 1944. During this period it was placed under Sonderkommando Nebel

After the Me-264's destruction by US bombing in April 1944, Nebel next re-appears as a Deutsch Luft Hansa Flugkapitan for Japan Kommando under command of Hauptmann Braun as a detachment of LTS.290 called 14/TG4 (Transportfliegergeschwader Nr.5) with Flugkapitan Rudolf Mayer as project pilot. Three Ju-290 aircraft were retired from service and reconfigured as civil aircraft for Deutsch Luft Hansa at the airline's maintenance facility on Rusnye airfield Prague.

Yes the Ju-290 flights to Nigxia were very definitely under the guise of Duetsch Luft Hansa operations flown from then neutral Bulgaria to China, but actually under control of LTS.290. Bulgaria was attacked in September 1944 when presumably these flights ceased.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by jerijerod »

i thought the 264 was used as a test bed for jet engines and general messerschmitt tinkering between 1941-44 at Lechfield. Milch forbade any further work on the completed prototype and the other 2 half built were scrapped. If there was a possibility of flights to Japan with it surely they would have finished another one atleast.

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Re: Long range Luftwaffe.

Post by lwd »

Simon_G wrote:
behblc wrote:JU-390. Range of 6,000 miles.
ME-264 Range of 9,315 miles , endurance of 45 hours. (but with disappointing ceiling).
J.S>
Correct about the disappointing ceiling, but incorrect about the ranges.

Fuel consumption of the BMW-801D is well known and from other published data about gross weights, empty weight payload and endurance one can conclude the following for the Ju-390:

Ju-390 data: (including 10,000kg payload)
Fuel Weight 28,600kg ( 62,995 lb) 10,500 US gal / 39,740 Litres
Consumption Cruise 275 US gal /hour (1650 litres/hour) @ 1800 rpm & 230 Kt up to 12,000ft altitudes
Estimated Range 7,400 nautical miles (13,760 km) @ long range cruise speed (232 kt)
....
Then why do all the internet sites list the range as ~6,000 miles?
Calculations using linear fuel consumption at altitude are somewhat suspect for max range estimations.
ONe of the sites I found also mentioned that due to structural concerns one of the two prototypes couldn't take off at max weight.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by jerijerod »

in [i]Messerschmitt Me 264: Amerika Bomber the Luftwaffe's lost transatlantic bomber[/i] by Forsyth and Creek they talk of the [i]theoritical[/i] use of the 264 for journeys to the far east.

Projekt Ostasienflug was devised by German aviationist Hans Bertram with the proposal to fly the 264 from Germany to Japan by two seperate routes. This was done in August 1944 and proposed to take place in Janusry 1945 in newly produced Me 264's (something at this late stage of the war and Milch's dislike for the aircraft and Messerschmitt was all but an imposibility!)

Bertram ran with the notion that the 264 had a range of 11500 KM with an armoured cockpit, 6 gun positions and a ten man crew and used the following equation to work out range:
Equipment crew etc 25000 kg
fuel 20250 kg
Load of passengers 5000 kg
Payload 2750kg

His argument was that the plane would be lighter for the return leg and would thus need a shorter runway.

The routes suggested were:

A 9200 Km: Berlin, over austria (with an interim stop at Linz-Horsching), hungary, Rumania, the black sea, turkey Iran and afghanistan before going over the pamir mountain range, east to Sinkiang in China and Inner mongolia before touching down at Peking after 26.5 hours

B 8100 Km: Same as the first to Afghanistan then south east over the Khyber and along the humalayas to india, rangoon,

According to the book nothing further came of this plan, although it is interesting that they were thinking of trying such an undertaking.
Post war British files do show that the Japanese attache in Berlin informed tokyo that there had been a conference with Messerschmitt in which 3 designers (including the project head for the 262) were to be transferred by plane to tokyo in 45 to help Japanese aircraft designers work on 262's, 264's 209's 309's and the 323...

However by this time the Prototype was destroyed in an air raid, allies had gained air superiority and the German industry could not spare the resources to make a new one.

Flights of 264's to asia were thus no more than a theory and not a reality.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by panzermahn »

I saw some pictures posted in a Russian forum of Afghan paratroopers with German parachutes and knee protectors. I wonder it is the same flight from Russia to China where Brandenburger agents were dropped at Afghanistan
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

jerijerod wrote:in Messerschmitt Me 264: Amerika Bomber the Luftwaffe's lost transatlantic bomber by Forsyth and Creek they talk of the theoritical use of the 264 for journeys to the far east.

Projekt Ostasienflug was devised by German aviationist Hans Bertram with the proposal to fly the 264 from Germany to Japan by two seperate routes. This was done in August 1944 and proposed to take place in Janusry 1945 in newly produced Me 264's (something at this late stage of the war and Milch's dislike for the aircraft and Messerschmitt was all but an imposibility!)

Bertram ran with the notion that the 264 had a range of 11500 KM with an armoured cockpit, 6 gun positions and a ten man crew and used the following equation to work out range:
Equipment crew etc 25000 kg
fuel 20250 kg
Load of passengers 5000 kg
Payload 2750kg

His argument was that the plane would be lighter for the return leg and would thus need a shorter runway.

The routes suggested were:

A 9200 Km: Berlin, over austria (with an interim stop at Linz-Horsching), hungary, Rumania, the black sea, turkey Iran and afghanistan before going over the pamir mountain range, east to Sinkiang in China and Inner mongolia before touching down at Peking after 26.5 hours

B 8100 Km: Same as the first to Afghanistan then south east over the Khyber and along the humalayas to india, rangoon,

According to the book nothing further came of this plan, although it is interesting that they were thinking of trying such an undertaking.
Post war British files do show that the Japanese attache in Berlin informed tokyo that there had been a conference with Messerschmitt in which 3 designers (including the project head for the 262) were to be transferred by plane to tokyo in 45 to help Japanese aircraft designers work on 262's, 264's 209's 309's and the 323...

However by this time the Prototype was destroyed in an air raid, allies had gained air superiority and the German industry could not spare the resources to make a new one.

Flights of 264's to asia were thus no more than a theory and not a reality.
In April 1944 a captured Luftwaffe airman under interrogation revealed regular flights from Petsamo, Finland to Japan.

The distance via Bering Straits (ie not overflying Soviet Union) is just 4,575nm (8,474km)

Image

Incidentally a Japanese airbase in the Kuril Islands; Matsuwa was plumbed with geothermal steam to keep it snow free year round. The former Japanese airfield has German 200L (44 Gal) drums all over the place stamped with 1943 manufacture.

Image

Soviet wartime intelligence refers to an airfield called Usiro used for communication flights with Germany. On Sakhalin at Usiro the Japanese built a 4000 metre long runway which is pretty unnecessary for anything else except the Me-264 with it's fully laden 2,400metre take off roll.

Image
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Lorenz »

So every other source is wrong and Simon Gunston is right? Unsourced statements from a lying POW, as so many of them did when interrogated, and mysterious fuel drums on an island in the Kuriles? In order to refute the findings of everyone else over the past 67 years, I think you will need some stronger evidence than that.

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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Ronald Lameck »

Pursuant to Simon G's above note, for the record: The Red Army re-captured Odessa on 10 April 1944.

Such flights were certainly within the realm of possibility with the various aircraft available. The absence of irrefutable evidence that such flights occurred is disappointing, but does not mean they did not occur. More research may solve the problem. What do the Japanese say on this subject?
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Lorenz »

Ronald Lameck wrote:Pursuant to Simon G's above note, for the record: The Red Army re-captured Odessa on 10 April 1944.

Such flights were certainly within the realm of possibility with the various aircraft available. The absence of irrefutable evidence that such flights occurred is disappointing, but does not mean they did not occur. More research may solve the problem. What do the Japanese say on this subject?
In you will use Google and plug in "Luftwaffe flights to Manchuria", "Luftwaffe flights to Japan in World War II" or similar, I think you will find a fair amount of discussion on the subject. At least I recall seeing quite a bit of it over the years. There have also been articles on it in Flugzeug magazine, Jet & Prop magazine, and at least one Italian aviation journal. Also, if you read back to the beginning of this thread you will find coverage of the Ju 290 being intended for this purpose in fall 1944.

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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by lwd »

Lorenz wrote:.. In you will use Google and plug in "Luftwaffe flights to Manchuria", "Luftwaffe flights to Japan in World War II" or similar, I think you will find a fair amount of discussion on the subject. At least I recall seeing quite a bit of it over the years. There have also been articles on it in Flugzeug magazine, Jet & Prop magazine, and at least one Italian aviation journal. ....
There has indeed been some considerable discussion of it. In a similar vein there has been considerable discussion of German and Japanese atomic weapons. However the overwhelming evidence is agaist them.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Ronald Lameck »

And in 2000 B.C.E. there was probably a lot of discussion about the world. And most of the discussion would have said that the world was flat. Now we know better. And so, outright dismissal of long-distance flights by Axis aircraft can be just as wrong.
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