2 Dec. 1942, Western Mediterranean

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
User avatar
Enrico Cernuschi
Patron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
Location: Pavia

Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Gentlemen,

the chance of a mine are astronomic indeed while to drift for 100 miles is quite hard. PRO states, then, there was only an hald hour between the first and the second explosion.

The solution, maybe, is in the KG 54 report. When did they attack? What did they sight? A drifting ship, two running destoyers or what else?

The other option would be the article about the VI SBK rescue activities on 2 and 3 Dec. 1942. Unfortunatly the publisher did not answer yet.

Bye

EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
User avatar
Enrico Cernuschi
Patron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
Location: Pavia

Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

On 1/2 Dec. 1942 night there was a second British raid, this time off Kerkennah Is.
Four Royal Navy destoryers (Jersey, Javelin, Nubian and Kelvin) sunk by surprise, on 1 Dec. 1942 at 23.45, the Italian Torpedo Boat Lupo stopped rescuing the surviviors of the freighter Veloce sunk before by a plane.

Do you know if, after this action, the destoyers sailed directly for Malta or went until Cape Bon being attacked, then, on 2 Dec. 1942 morning, by some planes (maybe the three KG 54 bombers)?

Italian ships at sea that morning, in fact, did not mention any air attack.

A more and more puzzled

EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
User avatar
cpa95
Contributor
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:20 am
Location: Heidelberg

Post by cpa95 »

Hi Enrico,

Radtke, Kampfgeschwader 54, p. 164, gives no more information as Lorenz has written.

The three Ju 88 started at 4.47am and hit the QUENTIN north of Zembretta. May be, they started from the airport of Elmas (???), where the I./KG 54 layed at the end of November 1942.

Is it possible to estimate the time for the flight?

Greetings
Thomas
Das Studium der Tagesmeldungen der Heeresgruppen ist mühseliger als die Lösung eines Kreuzworträtsels (Guderian 4.2.45)
User avatar
Enrico Cernuschi
Patron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
Location: Pavia

Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hi Thomas,

to climb once a time from Elmas bound for Zembretta is less than an hour. Anyway they could sight and bomb only after dawn, so they surely circled on the Narrows. Their direction had to be, anyway, towards East, not West.

Bye

EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
User avatar
Andy H
Associate
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:01 am
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Andy H »

I asked the following question on the uboatnet forum
It states on this website that the above mentioned warship was lost to a torpedo attack launched by 130 Gruppo Regia Aeronautica.

Could somebody confirm where this information came from, or any other information concerning the loss of the Quentin
The two replies received, gave the following information:-

Author : john
Date : 22.09.06
Hi Cheshire, In H.T. Lenton 'British & Empire Warships, He states she was Torpedoed by Italian aircraft from Galita Island, on 2.12.42 - john


and

Author: Brian
Date: 09-24-06 00:25

The 130º Gruppo Aerosiluranti, flying S.79s was based in Cagliari throughout the war. Their premier task was to interdict traffic in the Sicilian channel from the eastern side. However, the 131º and 132º Gruppi were also being redeployed following the British advance in Libya. I cannot be sure of which formation actualy carried out the attack on that particular day. My father was in the 130º Gruppo and he does not recall an attack on that day, but that may have carried out by another Stormo. The planes were answering a call from the lead escort of the convoy attacked by Force "Q".
Regards, Brian


Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
User avatar
Henk85
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: Brandenburg

Post by Henk85 »

User avatar
Enrico Cernuschi
Patron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
Location: Pavia

Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Thank you for the e mail Henk,

but the point is HMS Quenton was NOT hit by an air launched torpedo.

Good night

EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
User avatar
Andy H
Associate
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:01 am
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Andy H »

I suppose one explanation (if no proof comes forth for a torpdeo attack) would be that a bomb hit the Quetin in the intial attack but didn't explode at that point, but sometime later.

Thus the lack of recorded attack is explained, and the later explosion

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
User avatar
cpa95
Contributor
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:20 am
Location: Heidelberg

Post by cpa95 »

Hi,

but the Ju88 reported a direct hit with a SC-500 bomb. And OKW was informed on the same day, so they must have seen the explosion.

Greetings
Thomas
Das Studium der Tagesmeldungen der Heeresgruppen ist mühseliger als die Lösung eines Kreuzworträtsels (Guderian 4.2.45)
User avatar
Andy H
Associate
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:01 am
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Andy H »

cpa95 wrote:Hi,

but the Ju88 reported a direct hit with a SC-500 bomb. And OKW was informed on the same day, so they must have seen the explosion.

Greetings
Thomas
Hi Thomas

Yes that's correct and I'm not disputing that fact. What I'm suggesting is that another bomb hit the Quentin but didn't explode immeadiatley, thus it wasn't reported, so only one hit was recorded.

Later the unexploded bomb detonated-maybe

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
User avatar
Enrico Cernuschi
Patron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
Location: Pavia

Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

An interesting idea. It may be a path.

EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
User avatar
Andy H
Associate
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:01 am
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Andy H »

Enrico Cernuschi wrote:An interesting idea. It may be a path.

EC
but I'm not sure how we could go about proving or disproveing it, unless the LW logs or the PRO has some other information to give up. I was hoping that the PRO logs that you have seen Enrico would have given the background information (from the crew) as to what happened onboard the Quentin

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
User avatar
Enrico Cernuschi
Patron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
Location: Pavia

Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Unfortunatly I was able to find only the technical report about the kind of damages which caused the loss, nothing more. The ships' logs are not in the PRO (now TNA).

EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
Mattesini
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:50 am

2 Dec. 1942, Western Mediterranean

Post by Mattesini »

Hello Gentlemen,
Losses HMS QUENTIN, in uboat.net, of Francesco Mattesini. Reference “Bollettino d’Archivio della Marina Militare”, Rome, September 2001, p. 186-187.

At 1705 hours of 1 December 1942 HMS Quentin (Lt.Cdr. A.H.P. Noble, DSC, RN) left Bone harbor with 4 other units of Force "Q", the British light cruisers HMS Aurora (Capt. W.G. Agnew, CB, RN, flying the flag of V.Adm. C.H.J. Harcourt, CBE, RN), HMS Argonaut (Capt. E.W.L. Longley-Cook, RN) and HMS Sirius (Capt. P.W.B. Brooking, RN) and Quentin's sistership the Australian destroyer HMAS Quiberon (Cdr. H.W.S. Browning, OBE, RN).
The purpose of the sortie was intercepting an Italian/German convoy in the Sicilian Narrows. This convoy, designated "H", had sailed from Palermo and was heading towards Bizerte, consisted of Italian freighters Aventino (3794 tgr), Puccini (2422 tgr), Aspromonte (976 tgr) and the German KT 1 (850 tgr), and it was escorted by Italian destroyers Nicoloso da Recco (Capt. Aldo Cocchia), Camicia Nera, Folgore and the Italian torpedo boats Procione and Clio.
Force Q, proceeding at high speed, attacked the convoy on the night of 2 December, destroying it completely. All 4 freighters and the Folgore were sunk, while Nicoloso da Recco and Procione sustained severe damage. The British suffered no damage, demonstrating once more their mastery of night attacks.
The following morning, while returning to Bone, the ships of Force Q were 50 nautical miles bearing 048° from Cap de Guarde (Algeria) when they came under attack, first from German torpedo bombers of KG.26, then by a formation of 13 Ju-88s belonging to II FK.
At 0636 hours, in the uncertain predawn light conditions, HMS Quentin was hit in the side by a 500-kg bomb, which made the British believe they had been torpedoed. Her conditions appeared immediately to be desperate, the crew was removed by HMAS Quiberon under attack by the planes, which damaged her with near-misses. Quentin sank within 4 minutes (at 0640 hrs) in position 37º32'N, 08º32'E. There were 20 dead.
Now we shall describe some of the events relating to the daily activities of Axis air forces against Force Q, extracted from the reports made to OBS (Superior Command of the Air Force) [correction: O.B.S. is Oberbefehlshaber Süd (Commander in chief South) personally Feldmarshal Albert Kesselring]
As soon as the attack on the Italian/German convoy became known, II FK received the order to take off. Therefore, in the early morning hours, at 0315 hours, from Sardinian airports left 12 He.111 torpedo bombers of I/KG.26 and 4 Ju-88s torpedo bombers of III/KG.26. These were followed shortly by aircraft from Sicily who, between 0437-0447 hours could put in the air 13 Ju-88 bombers of KG.54 in 3 groups, of 3, 4 and 6 planes respectively.
The first to attack the British ships were the torpedo bombers but, due to poor weather, they reported attacking a convoy of La Galite island. In the official bullettin #371 of 4 December 1942 is stated 'sunk an escort vessel, PC-74 and attacked a cruiser with unseen effect due to fog. The majority of the aircraft failed to find the target due to inclement weather'.

From what said above, it is unlikely the ship identified as PC-74 was Quentin. This destroyer was then attacked by 3 Ju-88s of I.KG.54 and the crews reported obtaining one 500-kg bomb hit in the side of a destroyer, leaving her dead in the water. The second wave, consisting of 4 more Ju-88s, dropped their bombs on Quentin, which already had the stern underwater, while the 3rd wave, with 6 Ju-88s of III/KG.54, bombed Quiberon which was seen to stop and trailing a large oil slick. The aircraft then proceeded to Bone to attack harbor targets.
Now about the Italian 130th Gruppo torpedo bombers we (uboat.net) previously erroneously credited with sinking HMS Quentin.
At 0855 hours, well over 2 hours after HMS Quentin had been hit by the Ju-88s of I.KG.54, on orders of the Air Force Command, Sardinia, 8 S.79 torpedo bombers took off from Elmas airfield to search for, and attack, Force Q. 5 planes belonged to the 283th Squadriglia (Major Franco Melley) and 3 to the 280th Squadriglia (Capt Giuseppe Cimicchi). Once in the air, Major Melley's plane had engine trouble & abotrted the mission, while the remaining 7 planes carried on in single formation. While approaching the British ships, they were attacked by Spitfires, covering their return. North of Bizerte POs Hamblin and Lindsay, of 242 Sqn, attacked first, followed by Wing Cdr Hugo, CO of #322 Wing. Between them, they shot down 4 of the torpedo bombers. The remaining 3 dropped their torpedoes, reported overly optimistically to have hit a cruiser and a freighter. PO Hamblin was shot down by the defensive armament of the torpedo bombers, he parachuted out but was not recovered.
This page was updated on 7 November 2006, we would like to thank Mr. Francesco Mattesini from Italy for the detailed information provided.
User avatar
Andy H
Associate
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:01 am
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Andy H »

I was just about to post the above after checking my old post about the Quentin on UBoat.net.

Many thanks for your update Francesco

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
Post Reply