Were German troops in the Saarland on 1 March 1935?

German Freikorps, Reichsheer and Reichsmarine 1919-1934.

Moderator: Jason Pipes

Were German troops in the Saarland on 1 March 1935?

Postby sid guttridge » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:59 am

I have seen several references to German Army troops parading in Saarbrucken on 1 March 1935 on the occasion of the Saarland's return to Germany.

However, both the Saarland and the larger Rhineland that completely surrounds it were meant to be demilitarised under the Treaty of Versailles and Hitler did not remilitarise the two until a year later.

There was definitely a mass parade before Hitler in Saarbrucken on 1 March 1935. It was led by the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler and included many uniformed Nazi paramilitary groups brought in from other parts of Germany for the occasion.

However, given that the Saarland/Rhineland area was demilitarised at the time, were there really Army troops also in the parade?

Can anyone help on this one?

Many thanks,

Sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby Dackelstaffel » Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:01 pm

Hi,

I don't think so, according to my books and my bad memory there is no real military troops until the 7th march 1936. Among Ian Kershaw they were just 3000 this day.
All we need it's a Dackel in each pocket.
User avatar
Dackelstaffel
Contributor
 
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:29 pm

Postby Helmut Von Moltke » Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:53 am

Dackelstaffel wrote:Hi,

I don't think so, according to my books and my bad memory there is no real military troops until the 7th march 1936. Among Ian Kershaw they were just 3000 this day.


3000 what? Nazi paramilitaries, or soldiers? :?
Helmut Von Moltke
 

Postby Loïc B. » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:13 pm

I confirm Dackelstaffel's information : there were only three battalions involved in this operation, from Wehrkreise V, VI and IX (I don't know from which regiment/division, except that it was for sure among the following ones : 5. or 15. Infanterie Divisionen for the first ; 6. or 16. Infanterie Divisionen for the second ; 9. or 19. Infanterie Divisionen for the third), which were used as nucleus for the infantry divisions raised after the remilitarization of Rheinland (25., 26., 33. and 34. Infanterie Divisionen).

Hitler played a game, but he didn't want to involve more than a couple of thousand of his rare soldiers, at this time. So 3.000 Germans soldiers seem to be an accurate figure to me.

All the best,

Loïc
Last edited by Loïc B. on Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"On ne relève pas Picardie !"
User avatar
Loïc B.
Member
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:30 am

Postby Helmut Von Moltke » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:13 am

Loïc B. wrote:I confirm Dackelstaffel's information : there was only three battalions involved in this operation, from Wehrkreise V, VI and IX (I don't know from which regiment/division, except that it was for sure among the following ones : 5. or 15. Infanterie Divisionen for the first ; 6. or 16. Infanterie Divisionen for the second ; 9. or 19. Infanterie Divisionen for the third), which were used as nucleus for the infantry divisions raised after the remilitarization of Rheinland (25., 26., 33. and 34. Infanterie Divisionen).

Hitler played a game, but he didn't want to involve more than a couple of thousand of his rare soldiers, at this time. So 3.000 Germans soldiers seem to be an accurate figure to me.

All the best,

Loïc


thanks for detailed info! :D

helmut
Helmut Von Moltke
 

Postby sid guttridge » Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:10 am

Hi Guys,

There is some confusion here.

My original question was about the parade in 1935 after the civil reintegration of the Saarland into the Reich following a referendum. Loic's reply refers to the remilitarisation of the Rhineland in the following year, 1936.

During the remilitarisation of the Rhinland in 1936, three German infantry battlions were sent across the Rhine, only one of which entered the Saarlnd.

Cheers,

Sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby Loïc B. » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:15 am

Sid,

Sorry about the confusion. I know nothing about the parade of 1935, but it seems weird to me that Hitler sent significant Heer units during it. Probably no more than paramilitary (SS and SA).

All the best,

Loïc
"On ne relève pas Picardie !"
User avatar
Loïc B.
Member
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:30 am

Postby sid guttridge » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:59 am

Hi Loic,

Yes. I think it unlikely too.

However, as I had seen references to German Army units being present at the 1935 parade, I thought I had better check.

I suspect that my original published sources also got mixed up between the events following the Saarland Plebiscite in 1935 and those following the remilitarisation of the Rhineland as it affected the Saarland in 1936.

Cheer,

Sd.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby Jason Pipes » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:50 am

I researched this exact topic for some of the unit histories on the site but now I can't find my damn notes!! Ack. :evil: I will have to dig more tomorrow. I was (and am) facinated by the subject of what the pre-war Wehrmacht Infanterie-Divisionen were up to between 34-39. Some of the most overlooked major historical events these units took part in where the march back into Memelland, the Saar, Austria, etc. As soon as I can reconfirm which division it was I will update said units divsional history on the site! Anyone who can assist, well, :beer: !
User avatar
Jason Pipes
Admin
 
Posts: 1818
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 4:06 pm
Location: CA & WI

Postby sid guttridge » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:40 am

Hi Jason,

Hence, presumably, your question about the Sudetendeutsche Freikorps some four years ago.

Every source seems to be agreed that three infantry battalions were initially sent across the Rhine by train to the Belgian, Luxemburg and French (Saarbrucken) borders in March 1936. However, at least one source mentions a specific fourth battalion sent to Kaiserslautern. I will give you details when I get back home later this week.

It is easy enough from Tessin to find out what existing Army and Landespolizei battalions later became which new Army units in the six new divisions created in the Rhineland. However, there seems to be a big gap in the record of German operational deployments to the east of the Rhine in March 1936.

It is clear that there was a German plan to defend the east bank of the Rhine in March 1936 if the French and/or Belgians opposed the remilitarisation of the Rhineland with force, but there are very few details as to what deployments were actually made there. For example, if you read Guderian's memoirs it seems that his division's motorised infantry brigade was deployed forward from its depots at this time and other sources talk of elements of a least one other panzer division deploying to Senne(lager?).

Cheers,

Sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby Loïc B. » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:13 am

Jason,

I'm very interested in this topic too. Please let me know if you find your notes ;)
Is that you on this picture ? So, a real S.W.A.T. policeman rules this forum ? Terrific :D

Sid,

Could you tell me what are your sources concerning the Saarland plebiscite of 1935 ? I'm interested in this event because I found some of the French general headquarters papers on this topic, and I would be glad to know more about this event.

Thanks !
Cheers

Loïc
"On ne relève pas Picardie !"
User avatar
Loïc B.
Member
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:30 am

Postby sid guttridge » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:30 am

Hi Loic,

I have very little, which was one reason why I asked the original question. I will look out my notes. I know they include a brief outline of the British, Italian, Swedish and Dutch (?) forces used to police the plebiscite.

Cheers,

Sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby sid guttridge » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:39 am

Hi Jason,

I have the following for troops sent across the Rhine in March 1936. (NOT 1935).

Aachen on the Belgian border: II/39 Infantry Battalion.
Trier on the Luxemburg border: I/38 Infantry Battalion.
Saarbrucken on the French border: II/38 Infantry Battalion or II/17 Infantry Battalion.

I addition, elements of the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler also went to Saarbrucken.

Another source also includes Kaiserslautern amongst the places that the German Army moved into across the Rhine in March 1936 but does not give the unit involved.

Can you clarify the following:

1) Was it II/38 or II/17 that went to Saarbrucken?
2) Was Kaiserslautern also entered at this time? If so, by what unit/s?
3) Were other SS units than the AH sent across the Rhine at this time? If so, to where?

Cheers,

Sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Postby sid guttridge » Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:22 am

Hi TC,

Both the Saarland and Rhineland had resident Landespolizei. However, it is specifically soldiers I am asking about.

Cheers,

Sid.
sid guttridge
on "time out"
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Remilitarization of the Rhineland

Postby Gerst » Wed May 24, 2006 7:44 am

My father was in the Reichswehr / Wehrmacht during this time. He said that many of the units which marched in (some behind bands) were secretly transporated back across the Rhine to march back over, giving the impression of a much larger force.

He told me that this was also done at some big parades in order to impress foreign dignitaries. My father was a career soldier who survived French POW camps and got back to Germany in February, 1948.

Gerst
User avatar
Gerst
Member
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:45 pm
Location: Dallas, Texas

Next

Return to Reichswehr

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests