Just completed this book and what an insight into the realities of the so called nazi atrocities. Without doubt Oradour-Sur-Glane etc were tragic tales of mans inhumanities, the story is not all one sided. It seems the french Resistence and the Maquis were a rag tag bunch who probably did more to harm the French then support them and were often hated more then the Germans BY the French. and much of the fabled journey of Das Reich from the South of France to Normandy was actually spent in retaliating against equally offensive attacks by the resistence against Germans.
Having visited Oradour and seen notes on the post war trrial of Das Reich members. I can now understand why even the French courts did not wish to take a one sided view against Das Reich. It was not one sided and the resistence has a lot to answer for in the crimes of Das Reich.
Allied bombing in France killed far more civillians then the Germans did during the whole of the war.
Slowly but surely we are discovering that whilst Germany may have started the war. The Allies certainly kept the flames of attrocity burning.
Perhaps Jason it's time we had a section dealing with the myths surrounding atrocities during WW2, or are we destined always to be bottle fed misrepresentations?
How can we ever change if we never learn the real history.
I came to this forum thinking the "Germans" were the big bad wolf of Europe. That now is thoroughly debatable, as we learn what really happened.
Das Reich by Max Hastings
Moderator: sniper1shot
Thankyou Sunlife:
I will be looking for that book.
If there is one thing that I have learned about WWII is that
"Nothing Is As It Seems" and what you say just re-enforces this.
I am not surprised on what you said
I will be looking for that book.
If there is one thing that I have learned about WWII is that
"Nothing Is As It Seems" and what you say just re-enforces this.
I am not surprised on what you said
I came to this forum thinking the "Germans" were the big bad wolf of Europe. That now is thoroughly debatable, as we learn what really happened.
[quote="Annelie"]Thankyou Sunlife:
I will be looking for that book.
If there is one thing that I have learned about WWII is that
"Nothing Is As It Seems" and what you say just re-enforces this.
I am not surprised on what you said
[quote]
I am surprised more and more, how little we really know.
I could lend/lease it to you if you have trouble finding it
. Did you ever get that book on the Crete campaign? I saw it a few weeks back at a yard sale and thought of you. Guess I should have just got it huh.......hindsight...baa
I will be looking for that book.
If there is one thing that I have learned about WWII is that
"Nothing Is As It Seems" and what you say just re-enforces this.
I am not surprised on what you said
[quote]
I am surprised more and more, how little we really know.
I could lend/lease it to you if you have trouble finding it
. Did you ever get that book on the Crete campaign? I saw it a few weeks back at a yard sale and thought of you. Guess I should have just got it huh.......hindsight...baa
Thanks, Sunlife:
Yes, I have the Crete book both from German perspective and the English version plus the Greek. I would say I got it covered :-)
But, you can guess I am only able to read the English version and working on my Deutsch and so soon the German.
I will keep this in mind that you would lend me the book in case I cannot find.
But, you know the saying "have computer will find" :-)
Regards
Annelie
Yes, I have the Crete book both from German perspective and the English version plus the Greek. I would say I got it covered :-)
But, you can guess I am only able to read the English version and working on my Deutsch and so soon the German.
I will keep this in mind that you would lend me the book in case I cannot find.
But, you know the saying "have computer will find" :-)
Regards
Annelie
Hi SunLife,
Hastings' book is well-written and the author does a good job of presenting the events in an objective manner.
I also agree that there are at least two sides to every story and that much of the history of WW II as we know it today was written by the victors. However, it is astounding that you label the herding of over 400 women and children into a church and then blowing it up as a "so-called" atrocity. Despite attacks by the Maquis, there is no justification (and Hastings does not justify it in the book) for elements of "Das Reich" to have committed this atrocity.
Rohrbach
Hastings' book is well-written and the author does a good job of presenting the events in an objective manner.
I also agree that there are at least two sides to every story and that much of the history of WW II as we know it today was written by the victors. However, it is astounding that you label the herding of over 400 women and children into a church and then blowing it up as a "so-called" atrocity. Despite attacks by the Maquis, there is no justification (and Hastings does not justify it in the book) for elements of "Das Reich" to have committed this atrocity.
Rohrbach
Hi RohrbachRohrbach wrote:Hi SunLife,
I also agree that there are at least two sides to every story and that much of the history of WW II as we know it today was written by the victors. However, it is astounding that you label the herding of over 400 women and children into a church and then blowing it up as a "so-called" atrocity. Despite attacks by the Maquis, there is no justification (and Hastings does not justify it in the book) for elements of "Das Reich" to have committed this atrocity.
Rohrbach
I assure you it;s not a deliberate intent to lessen the impact of such atrocious behaviour. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for such deeds, whoever you are.
As you have observed my literary talents are somewhat lacking and I am an impatient bugger.
Lets put it down to a communication error on my part. I agree 100% with your comments on Hastings stance and it is the correct one, of course.
No offense to the dead was intended. Having been to the cemetary and prayed over their graves, I know exactly how horrid it was.
My only intention in being here is to see the point from all sides and to remain at all times a decent, impartial perspective. Something rarely granted for the German side.
I personally feel the mentality that carried out these and other atrocities, on all sides, is still in all of us, is still happening today and will still happen tomorrow. Until we admit this is not just freaks of nature, we can never move on and stop it ever happening again.
While I cannot condone the soldiers of Das Reich for Oradour one does wonder how history would have portrayed the Marsch of DR to the invasionfront had the Maquis not kidnapped Sturmbannführer Kampfe.
btw The French I've met still support the actions of the Resistence during the war, despite the obvious repercussions on their fellow countrymen. Not all are terribly happy about being on the receiving end of Alllied bombing (especially prior to D day). As you'll know much of the pre-invasion bombing did little to disturb German positions on the beaches or inland, but did cost the French dearly in civilian dead.
C'est la Guerre!
btw The French I've met still support the actions of the Resistence during the war, despite the obvious repercussions on their fellow countrymen. Not all are terribly happy about being on the receiving end of Alllied bombing (especially prior to D day). As you'll know much of the pre-invasion bombing did little to disturb German positions on the beaches or inland, but did cost the French dearly in civilian dead.
C'est la Guerre!
Simon Harrold
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken decoded.
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken decoded.
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Richard Murphy
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Simon, By the way great web-site on Battlefield Relics. For two other viewpoints of what happened at Oradour see http://www.dasreich.ca and then the article on Oradour. JB
Simon H -
The central focus of the allied air campaign over France before the invasion was not the beaches and fortifications, but the French rail net (which is also why substantial civilian casualties were incurred). This campaign actually made a vital contribution to victory in Normandy, so at least, it was not an ineffectual effort.
cheers
The central focus of the allied air campaign over France before the invasion was not the beaches and fortifications, but the French rail net (which is also why substantial civilian casualties were incurred). This campaign actually made a vital contribution to victory in Normandy, so at least, it was not an ineffectual effort.
cheers
Hello Quist,Qvist wrote:
The central focus of the allied air campaign over France before the invasion was not the beaches and fortifications, but the French rail net (which is also why substantial civilian casualties were incurred). This campaign actually made a vital contribution to victory in Normandy, so at least, it was not an ineffectual effort.
cheers
I agree wholeheartedly. I was specifically thinking of the bombing of Caen. To me this served little strategic value and if anything hindered the Allies later on.
War's hell, but especially if you're a civilian...
Simon Harrold
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken decoded.
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken decoded.
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Richard Murphy
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- Location: Bletchley, England
Simon,
War is hell, whether or not you are a civilian! The fact remains that all sides, especially nowadays, find us much easier to target than those with the potential to shoot back!
As for Caen, it may not have represented a strategic target (What facilities it had were virtually useless to the Allies, whether it was taken or not.), but as it held both tactical and propaganda value, it was worth fighting for. THAT is why both the Germans put so much effort into its defence, and the British & Commonwealth forces put so much effort into taking it. In the end, neither was relevant, because the US led breakout sealed the city's fate anyway, but that doesan't mean that both sides should have sat down and waited for Patton to get his bum in gear!!!!
Regards,
Rich
War is hell, whether or not you are a civilian! The fact remains that all sides, especially nowadays, find us much easier to target than those with the potential to shoot back!
As for Caen, it may not have represented a strategic target (What facilities it had were virtually useless to the Allies, whether it was taken or not.), but as it held both tactical and propaganda value, it was worth fighting for. THAT is why both the Germans put so much effort into its defence, and the British & Commonwealth forces put so much effort into taking it. In the end, neither was relevant, because the US led breakout sealed the city's fate anyway, but that doesan't mean that both sides should have sat down and waited for Patton to get his bum in gear!!!!
Regards,
Rich
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michael kenny
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Das Reich murdered 245 women and 207 children by burning them alive in a locked church. They fired through the windows at the women and shot those that tried to escape. NOTHING can excuse such cowardly behaviour and the sickening attempt by SS apologists to try and blame it all on the victims deserves nothing but contempt. May I remind you it was not a 'so called atrocity' but a real and well documented one. Sunlife have we met before on another Forum?. I am going by your use of the word 'bugger'.