"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer

[Tom Houlihan]

Doug, I've seen most of the bitches about this book, and responded to at least a few of them. U's detailed, chronological listing, with the fruits of his research, is probably the best one I remember seeing. Of my 20 years of service, there are some incidents I can recall with startling clarity. Other things are so hazy as to be lost. I fully comprehend the futility of trying to recall all that information so many years after the fact, even without getting shot at!

When I put a few projects to bed that I have going right now, I plan to re-re-read Sajer. I'll have to do so with a hard-copy of some of these perceived errors, and see if I can come up with any new thoughts on them.

I still say one of the biggest problems is in translation. His German was poor. So when he was writing, he was taking improper or inadequate comprehension of German words and terminology and writing it in French. Then someone translated it into English (and however many other languages?). I'd be willing to bet the translator(s) didn't have military experience or knowledge. Notice the trend here? Poor comprehension of language A, written in language B, translated into language C by someone lacking subject matter experience. And we wonder how there can be technical errors???

[B Hellqvist]

Thanks for the kind words, Tom! As for the translation, the book was translated by one Lily Emmet. While her understanding of French is probably good, it is obvious that military terms aren't her forte. So that factor must be taken into account as well; it is pointless to nit-pick stuff that might be clumsily rendered in French, then translated to English by someone with little familiarity with English, French and German terms. It is better to look at the bigger discrepancies and try to make sense out of them instead. I've noticed that my Swedish edition differs in the interpretation of some minor things.

[Stephan H.]

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread but here is my comment (apologies if this information was brought out in a prior post):

Back in the late 1990s when I used to subscribe to the Journal of Military History published by the Society of Military History I came across a small article where a U.S. Army Staff Officer actually tracked down Guy Sajer and confronted him with the claims that he was a fraud and never served in 'GD'. He did this after an atricle was published in

Letters to the Editor: Stephen G. Fritz, Stefan Jovanovich and Giuseppe Finizio: The Journal of Military History, Vol. 62, No. 1 (Jan., 1998), pp. 242-246

where Finizio argued that the book was fiction.

While I was not able to track down the JMH rebuttal article yet, Guy Sajer's response was translated and published in the journal. To paraphrase what I can recall Sajer wrote:

1) he was shocked anyone was still interested in the book
2) he was shocked that anyone had taken issue with the book
3) he angrily defended himself and said something to the effect that you can't remember everything like it happened yesterday
4) he asserted that the events in the book were true

So I know these comments are not earth shattering, but if anyone has any of the JMH from 1997-2000 (I sold off my collection of the journal) they should be able to find the rebuttal article and confirm my (potentially faulty) memory.

Stephan

[B Hellqvist]

Chapters 7

This chapter is confused and confusing. It is very hard to set dates for the events, but it seems like the chapter covers most of September. Dnieper is crossed and re-crossed, and it is hard to determine whether GD’s alleged involvement in the Battle of Konotop takes place at the beginning, middle, or end of the month. Going by the historical record, Konotop was taken by the Soviet 60th Army on 6 September. The problem is that there’s no evidence that GD units were present, as the bulk of the Division appears to have been involved in fighting c. 150 km to the south. Konotop was defended by the 183. Infanterie-Division, and according to the divisional history, no units from GD were assisting in the battle. Adding to the confusion are Sajer’s claims that it was snowing (p. 271), but also that GD stayed on the east bank of the Dnieper until the first snow. Historically, the first snow came on 5 December, two months after GD had crossed the river. Thenhe seems to forget about the snow for a few chapters, referring instead to dust, rains and mud. There’s no mention of GD’s rearguard action at the bridge at Kremenchug.
On page 271, Sajer is upfront about the problem with dates and places. “One can only draw a very general view of our situation from the lines I’ve just written, without any of the details. (…) I have never had more than a very approximate idea of our movements and centers of operation, and would certainly be incapable of drawing an accurate diagram of the front at any point of the war.” How true! A benign attitude towards his muddled chronology and geography would be to regard the inconsistencies as a mark of authenticity. A fraudster would do better research, but write with less presence, and would certainly continue to churn out war novels like e.g. Sven Hassel. But it is a bit damning that two major engagements (Belgorod and Konotop) in his book never took place, at least not at the places going by those names.


Chapter 8

On page 304, the soldiers are told that the whole division (GD) is surrounded in a pocket centered on Konotop. This is patently false.


Chapter 9

Sajer crosses the Dnieper just south of Kiev, about the same time (historically) as the bulk of the Division crosses the river at Kremenchug, 250 km to the south.

[Doug Nash]

Well, so much for TFS for being an accurate travel guide to the Russian Campaign! You can't have it both ways - on the one hand, you find fault in Sajer's account in regards to dates, places and locations, and then on the other hand, you state that Sajer himself says that most of the time he didn't know where he was most of the time and was unsure of the dates (which is also what he told me in a letter from 1997). As for the weather, during the week I spent in Ukraine in June 1996, it rained, hailed, & we experienced high winds. It wasn't predicted in the local weather forecast and I doubt if the locals found it noteworthy enough to record. I don't think that the Germans or Soviets for that matter kept detailed records of localized weather conditions or phenomena for the entire Eastern Front during the fall of 1943, they simply didn't have the sophisticated means to track and record like we do today. And then, after giving Sajer the benefit of the doubt, you once again call his veracity into question. Well, which is it? Like I stated in a previous post, I think you're missing the point. He's probably wrong about Konotop, confusing it with another town that probably had a similar name, much as he did with his use of the town name of Belgorod when he was very clearly writing about the Battle of Kursk. There are hundreds of tiny little towns in the Ukraine that aren't even on the map - who knows, there may be one named Konotop. But trying to pinpoint his movements & battles is an excercise in futility - the point of the book is not to provide a highly detailed account of the Russian campaign, but a highly detailed account of Grenadier Guy Sajer's role in it & what he went through. That's all there is too it. Trying to make more out of it than that is an exercise in futility. While I admire your investigative skills, in my opinion you're wasting your time.
Cheers,
Doug N.

[cedric mas]

You must know that in France, Guy Sajer's book is taken not to a real historical book but more to a vivid and unexact testimony, with magnifical description.

Guy Sajer's enlistment is true (the problem is that there is no trace of him in the Grossdeutschland fightings units), but It is not sure that all the facts described in a real good style were underwent by himself. he may have written stories told to him by others veterans. Remember that he was not first a fighter, but a train and supply soldier.

In France, we used to compare his book with the Baron Marbot's Memories (a lot of true facts, but not necessary personnaly seen or undergone). That's very frequent and noone can blame it. For me there is no fraud there...

Last words : Guy Sajer is also a famous comics author, but a contested man : he never regrets any of his engagement to support the Wehrmacht in the Eastern front, and no trace in his book of any feelings that he enlisted himself by mistakes or errors, thanks to lies of German's propaganda. He confirmed in several interviews that even today (in 80s and 90s), he will enlist again with Wehrmacht to serve as "slave" in Russian front !

As his book is easy to read, and especially for young people, that's something odd and not really good...

Regards,

CM

[B Hellqvist]

he may have written stories told to him by others veterans. Remember that he was not first a fighter, but a train and supply soldier.

While he served in a supply unit for a few months, the bulk of his service was in the Panzergrenadier-Regiment Grossdeutschland,an I don't think his tale is a combination of other veterans' stories.

As for my investigation being an exercise in futility, it is hopefully one that might once and for all show just how futile it is to track Sajer's movements. Also, with people taking Sven Hassel's stories as truth, there's an even greater risk that Sajer's descriptions will be perceived as what really happened. Some people have a tendency to believe anything that is written, so a list of what doesn't add up in TFS might be a useful resource. I don't know what the movie script will include, but perhaps it will be best to leave out references to specific places unless you the rivet-counters to have a field day.

To borrow a title from another book: "It never Snows In September". Ukraine's climate is an inland climate, with hot summers and cold winters. When Sajer talks about snow during a period that ought to be September, at least one could wish that his editor had been more alert...

[cedric mas]

Hi,

My post was just a way to give you the main french way of thinking about this famous and impressive book, but far from real facts.

Even his enlistement into Panzer-grenadier regiment GD is sometimes contested, as he was french, not german. Some people had made researches on GD's rolls and find nothing sure on his fighting participation.

Commonly, it is admitted that he was part of GD's train for the main part, and listen a lot of stories from veterans.

That's all. What you are doing, checking very deeply his text to find confirmation of historical facts is not "futility" but really interesting, even for a "rivet-counters" like me . I would be very happy to know why you are saying this for me (that's off-topic, and perhaps I misunderstood what you said... I am frequently told to be "library-rat" more than "rivet-counter" ).

regards,

CM

[Doug Nash]

CM,
Man, do I get tired of repeating the same thing over and over again.

1: Sajer's Mother was German. Her maiden name was Sajer. Thus he was 50% German. He enlisted using his mother's last name, not his father's, which was Mouminoux, which means "My Little Kitty Cat" in French.

2: Alsace-Lorraine was "reincorporated" into the German Reich in 1940. Anyone living there with German ancestry automatically became a German citizen. Sajer was 50% German. Therefore, Sajer was considered a German by the German Reich.

3: Sajer volunteered to become an infantryman in the GD in April 1945. He had been in an Army transport unit (Tross), but in the field, if you volunteered, you could move into the combat arms. (Later, people were involuntarily moved into the combat arms, but the GD was an elite unit, so it preferred volunteers)

4: Sajer was trained by the GD's Feld-Ausbildung Battalion, a special unit created in the field to train these volunteers and men who were already in the GD, but in non-combat billets, so they could all be Panzergrenadiers.

5: Most of the German Army's personnel records did not survive the war, so sayeth the Aussenstelle Office at Korneli-Muenster. Most of the officer records did, but of those 10 million + enlisted men who served, they told me that only 10% of the records survived the war. There is NO master roster of all enlisted men who served in the GD. It simply does not exist.

Ergo, Sajer was legally able to volunteer to be a Panzergrenadier and did so. Next question...(sigh)

Cheers,
Doug N.

[B Hellqvist]

3: Sajer volunteered to become an infantryman in the GD in April 1945.

You mean 1943, right?

[Doug Nash]

Yes, of course, but I must admit that there are not a dozen or so rivet-counters standing here verifying the authenticity of that date. So you have to take it on faith...

[John P. Moore]

I’m looking at my copy of “The Forgotten Soldier”. It’s a first edition of the English version published back in 1971 that I must have purchased from the Military Book Club back when I was a young military officer. My copy has been all over the world with me and I have enjoyed reading it many times. I never doubted that the author was writing his best recollection of his military experiences; his truth. It was not something that needed to be embellished, even the seemingly mundane duty of moving supplies. It’s a good book to read to gain a better understanding of what one soldier might have experienced and is on a much different level than something that might have been written by someone such as a former division commander who had such resources as war diaries and former staff officers to help him get the details right. I find it more than ridiculous how some here continue to take issue with the “truth” as recalled by the author, especially when they appear to not have even made the effort to study all of the earlier postings on this thread. Enjoy the book for what it is.

John

[cedric mas]

CM,
Man, do I get tired of repeating the same thing over and over again.

Hello,

I am really sorry and present you my apologize but you must remember that I am in this forum since... 3 days.

All what you are explaining (even for the 100 times) is known and contested in France. Does it makes sense for you ?

he told that he was enlisted in a fighting units, but no records, no trace, for example testimonies of others soldiers or officers. and his book is not a good evidence for him to be part of the most important foughts of the Panzergrenadier regiment GD as it is full of mistakes, errors and gaps....

Legally, he WAS french, and assume the fact that he enlisted under german uniform (even in 90s with no regrets nor distance with his youth's choices). I am NOT talking like some others french people that he is a "traitor", only that there is no evidence that his affirmation to be mainly part of a fighting unit was true. That's all. The Alsace-Lorraine status during WW2 is a bit complex, and former french enlisted men in german units are ALL registered in the main house of their town (in France). Also all who deserted or refused to enlist to be sent in concentration camps. No trace of Sajer or Mouminoux there....

Last word : Mouminoux means nothing in french (you are talking perhaps of "mon minoux", wich may be perhaps translated in "my little @#% cat" ?). Any other question ?

Sorry to borrow you, as I took time trying to give this forum the french's thoughts on this book written by a french in french. I believed that it may have interest some of members, but I realize that I am not welcome here (bashed and others... ). I am too old to receive any teacher's threats or punishment...

But I have many others way to spent my time, so many rivets to be counted...

So good bye chaps...

CM

[B Hellqvist]

I find it more than ridiculous how some here continue to take issue with the “truth” as recalled by the author, especially when they appear to not have even made the effort to study all of the earlier postings on this thread.

Well, I have studied the earlier postings here, in other threads, in other fora, and the diverse published articles on the Internet, but as Tom noted above, there's been no listing with more detail. Some people dismiss TFS as fiction, while others defend it, using every scrap of evidence that might prove it right. As I wrote earlier, I thought that it might be of interest to list both the discrepancies and the things that strenghtens Sajer's case. But if a moderator of this forum, which is purportedly dedicated to research on the Wehrmacht, finds my findings "more than ridiculous", I'll cease my postings here and recommend anyone interested to read the rest here instead.

Cheers,
B Hellqvist

[Doug Nash]

So I guess we are back to where we started...