"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer

Book discussion and reviews related to the German military.

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Christian
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Post by Christian »

Because after the war the veterans were often considered as criminals with no real digging into their real activities. All the books of Jean Mabire, for example, are using "pseudos", not real names. Same for the recent book of Forbes.
Both Mabire and Forbes are authors who wrote about French volunteers who joined the Waffen SS, etc. I can therefore understand why they may have chosen or may have been requested to use pseudonyms.
I still fail however to understand why Mouminoux would use pseudonyms instead of the actual name of German comrades for instance. Am I right in assuming that Stefan Walls was German? If so, why using a pseudonym? How was this name ever identified?

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Tom Houlihan
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Post by Tom Houlihan »

Christian wrote:I still fail however to understand why Mouminoux would use pseudonyms instead of the actual name of German comrades for instance.
Christian, there are still several authors who prefer to use pseudonyms. It is not up to you or me to understand their reasoning. It probably has something to do with belonging to an army that lost a war, or belonging to an organization that was deemed criminal, or perhaps belonging to another nation's military. You and I did not live through what they endured. You and I do not have to tolerate what "the neighbors" would say if they found out that jovial Mr. Schmidt down the street used to belong to the Waffen-SS. I'm sure there are many more factors than that.

Rather than belaboring such a minor point, perhaps we should simply be thankful that someone wrote about their experiences, as best they could, to the best of their recollection.
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Post by Christian »

Tom,

I know many veterans who were drafted and forced to serve in the Wehrmacht and I concur that the vast majority of us do not have the slightest idea what these men lived through during and after the war. A couple of these veterans published autobiographies and they would have had reasons to use a pseudonym, yet they used their real name. This is what motivated my questions and I accept that there is no clear answer in Mouminoux's case.

During my research, I have had the privilege and honor to get in contact with many veterans (German & American) and although I treat every single one with the utmost respect, I remain cautious about information provided and I try whenever possible to corroborate facts with primary records, other sources, etc. I therefore do take issue with people on this forum who ridicule, call names and brush off others because they dare raising a question about a veteran's account. I also can't remain silent when contributors make claims that can not be substantiated.

I shall leave it at this.

Christian
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Post by panzerschreck1 »

John 123, why aren't you answering my question?????

Where did you see those Cliffs around Memel??????? :?:
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Post by john123 »

John 123, where did you see those alledged cliffs in Memel(Klaipeda)??
I can;t see them, only shorelines than forrest areas but no cliffs, the whole area is relatively flat!!!

The before mentioned unit south of Memel (on the landstrip) was the
Georgian Nachschub Kompanie....(Z.b.V 607..

Sorry, I have been offline since last Thursday - I had guests in from out of town.

You will note that in the book he says the cliffs were "small"; I'm not sure the exact words used. He also says he was a few miles North of Memel, which is about where these cliffs are.

Cut and paste this into Google Earth and you will be put directly on the cliffs:

55.74719, 21.08425
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Post by panzerschreck1 »

Hmmm, well now this second time i do see something that could resemble
cliffs, but mine G.E. gets real blurry at 250 feet.

I guess i had something in mind like the cliffs of Dover , but it seems that
approaching the beach from the east you first have graslands, rocky area
and then you spot some grey outlining that resembles cliffs. (so the graslands and rocky areas must be located on highground)
Last edited by panzerschreck1 on Wed May 10, 2006 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by john123 »

Nothing close to the Cliffs of Dover for sure. Sajer says the "cliffs" had machine gun bunkers on top facing the beach - I don't think you would put machine gun bunkers on super high cliffs, but rather ones that would have a good and relativley close range to the beach.

Another point here is that, since the cliffs are not very large they are not something that would demand a name such as the one ascribed to the "Cliffs of Dover". Therefore, this feature is probably not seen on any maps - only a person having been there would know about them.

I think he even said that at one point they climbed up to the forest area and started walked down a road.
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Post by Tom Houlihan »

Okay, since I needed a little "light reading," I grabbed my copy of Sajer again. I'm trying to find errors and possible explanations.

Anybody live near Bialystok? I just did a little searching, and I may have found a candidate for the castle where he did his training. Of the ones they showed pictures of, this one looked the most likely.


http://ettc.uwb.edu.pl/strony/bialystok ... ouse03.jpg


I tried to get the actual image to show here, but I'm technologically challenged.... @{
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Post by Laurent Daniel »

Hi Tom,
Image
My pleasure
:D
Regards
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Post by Tom Houlihan »

Merci, mon ami!
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Post by panzerschreck1 »

A beautiful place actually!

Maybe i should visit the area once,

Thanks Tom! if everybody helps out in investigating a bit,

soon things will get more clear!

:D :up:
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Sajer's Movements in Poland (and I don't mean his bowels)

Post by Doug Nash »

Since this discussion has finally lurched into a fact-based one, where we're all on somewhat safer ground, here's a few things to chew on ----

In the book's Prologue, Sajer says he underwent basic infantry training in Chemnitz, completing his course of instruction on 15 September 1942.

That same day, he states that he took a train with other recruits to the Polish city of Bialystok, where they disembark and then march 15 kilometers to a small hamlet, where they take up quarters in a "fairy-tale" castle. Here they undergo advanced training for the next six weeks. (Incidentally, Sajer mentions in the prologue that he won't turn seventeen for two and a half months).

On 30 October 1942 with their training complete, Sajer and the rest of his comrades board a train and head eastwards towards Minsk.

Let's just go ahead, for the sake of argument, that what Sajer said is true. What do the records say?

Just using Tessin, here's what I found:

Infanterie-Ersatz Bataillon 102 was located in Chemnitz from 26 August 1939 until 15 September 1942. On that date, it was divided in half and reorganized into an Infanterie Ersatz und Ausbildung Battalion 102 and a Reserve-Infanterie Battalion 102. Res.Inf.Btl. 102 was then transferred to Poland (Generalgouvernement) on that same date.

Infanterie-Ersatz Bataillon 151 was located in Bialystok, where it was stationed beginning on 13 July 1942. On 1 October 1942, this unit was divided into an Ersatz and an Ausbildung Bataillon.

There were two transport security battalions located in Bialystok - Transport Sicherungs Bataillon 574 and 612. In October 1942, TSB 574 was transferred to the Eastern Front, and was based out of Kharkov. TSB 612 stayed in Bialystok, where it remained until 8 April 1944.

What all this is getting at is that Sajer could plausibly have been assigned to one or all of these units between July and the end of October 1942. His movements track quite closely to the places and times these units were being activated and transferred hither and yon.

Just something to contemplate ---

Cheers,
Doug
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Post by panzerschreck1 »

Since much of the GD archives are missing (list of enlisted men Sajer's name?)
Could anyone check for the TSB 574 list for Sajer;s name or his friend Halls /Stefan Walls would be actually the name to look for??

I think those records must be retrievable :wink:

P.S. allso well done on this one Doug!
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Records

Post by Doug Nash »

I already checked with the Bundesarchiv-Personalarchiv in Kornelimuenster about 6 years ago. They didn't have any other records for that unit. I also contacted the Wast in Berlin, but they were unable to help since they mainly maintain records of those who were killed or missing in action. Since Sajer survived the war, they couldn't help. I asked them to search using both the name Sajer and Mouminoux, by the way.
They told me that only about 10% of unit personnel records survived the war - that goes for the GD as well. Most unit records (Wehrstammrollen, Stellungsbesetzungen, etc.) were destroyed near the end of the war either by the units themselves prior to surrendering, by Allied action (Bombing, etc.), captured and still held (the Soviets still have tons of stuff) or may have simply been lost or thrown away in the immediate postwar era. It's like looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack. Chances are, even if you have the individual's Soldbuch in your hand and ask Kornelimuenster for some verification of an individual's service, chances are nine times out of ten that they'll have nothing on him.
It's frustrating, but there you are.
Doug
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Post by panzerschreck1 »

Something "new"to Chew on:

Everyone who read the book knows that during the severe fighting in
Memel Sajers unit was involved in constant heavy fighting,
the fighting was that hard and desorientating that some sort of madness
developed around the entire unit..

Think of it :to everyone astonishment the veteran commits some sort of suicide (whilst he always had been the cornerstone of the unit)
after that their leutnant Wollers twice tries to commit suicide, first time he ran out of a bunker during a heavy bombardement, rescuers save him and get him back to the bunkers safety,

Second time after the danger in the fog in the area north of Memel (cliff area) he orders the men not to follow him back to Memel (center of Memel was virtually a death trap russians had taken all key areas) and wants to die at Memel, the unit disobey the order and do follow him, then
halfway on the beach they rest and subsequently hear the Rescuers boat calling the mistakingly other harbor further north Windau, Windau!

Well it seems very likely there was a good reason for leutnant Wollers to be suicidal, did he knew anything he did not tell the soldiers?

Did he miss the last evac. point of the Grossdeutschland?


The last GD unit leaving Memel:

2nd Battalion, Pz.Gren.Rgt. "GD" left aboard the ship Wolta on 4 December 1944 and reached the port of Pillau near Koenigsberg without incident.


Was this the last embarkation point, due to the relentless defensive actions of the unit?

I think leutnant Wollers somehow totally missed the evac. point or was told to rearguard the entire evacuation of the last remaining GD troops,
Nevertheless the unit virtually came to the point of being entirely wiped out at Memel,

They were just ectremely lucky catching up with a boat that due to the fog,entirely missed its harbor Windau end ended up south :shock:
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