Thomas,
First of all, I would be grateful that if you quote a person, you get your story right. I don't appreciate it when people put words in my mouth.
Secondly, I grew up in Alsace and I very familiar with the history of the "Malgrés-nous". In fact, several members in my personal family lived (and some did not) through the ordeal. With all due respect, I highly doubt that you are in any position to judge reality from fiction or to teach me anything new in respect to this subject.
Thirdly, I highlighted statements made by Guy Mouminoux and raised a number of questions. If you took the time to read the interview (that is if you have the ability to read and understand French), please tell me which questions were not valid in respect to inconsistencies in his stories. I can appreciate that you might not have the language/cultural background and in-depth knowledge about this subject; however that does not diminish the fact that his stories just don’t add up. Look at the facts and analyze them in the historical context, and even you should come to a similar conclusion. And please, let’s stop hiding behind the “Guy Sajer was very young and not a professional soldier. And what happened to him was a long time ago” and other excuses.
Lastly, I have no problem with you and others believing whatever you want about this novel. However, I have a problem with people, who in my opinion ignore historical facts and realities and who keep promoting this as a factual autobiography. If you want to get a real account from a veteran who was drafted by the German Army and fought on the Russian Front, you should read the book “Die Geopferter Generation – Kriegserinnerungen eines zwangseingezodenen Elsässers 1939 -1945, Fernand Bernecker". And by the way, he is not a fraud, he is the real deal.
Cheers,
Christian
"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer
Moderator: sniper1shot
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Frederick L Clemens
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- Location: Sterling VA
In response to Thomas Mix's post -
If we were discussing opinions about a novel in a teen chat room, "give it a rest" could be a valid response to a running disagreement. In this case though, we are debating the authenticity of a book which claims to be a factual autobiography and we are doing so on a website which is dedicated to serious research of the Wehrmacht.
When you ask a question on this website about motorcycles in a Panzer Division, you will not just get the answer about how many there, but also what brand tires they used, how many spokes on a wheel, etc. You personally may not be interested in that level of detail, but some people are and that kind of expertise comes in very handy when trying to verify documents and accounts (books, movies, oral).
Whether a man runs for president and says he is a war hero or writes a book which purports to be the Landser's eyeview of the war, you want to know things like "Was he really a soldier?", "Was he really where he says he was?", and "Do his statements match the facts?" The answers make all the difference in deciding if he is champion or a charlatan or maybejust something in-between.
Yes, of course, Sajer would have been a young man - **News Flash** - most men in war are young men!! The officer whose career I am researching made Division Commander at 40!!...You say he was not a professional soldier. I daresay that any infantryman who belongs to the premier division of any Army during years of front combat must demonstrate some basic knowledge of the uniform he wears and the tools of his trade (77s and spandaus indeed! - did he get that junk from a WW1 novel?). It's a matter of life and death to him...Too long ago to remember the details? Sajer didn't think so - he doesn't hesitate to throw in many details like 112 Killeringstrasse and what his "glorious memory" does not provide, he feels free to invent.
How do I know anybody is telling the truth? How exisitential of you! Maybe we should all stare at a candle and question ourselves?
But I've got a better idea - how about we look at this stuff objectively - compare claims to the known facts - weed out the good books from the bogus ones - and stick to military history rather than dimestore novels.
If we were discussing opinions about a novel in a teen chat room, "give it a rest" could be a valid response to a running disagreement. In this case though, we are debating the authenticity of a book which claims to be a factual autobiography and we are doing so on a website which is dedicated to serious research of the Wehrmacht.
When you ask a question on this website about motorcycles in a Panzer Division, you will not just get the answer about how many there, but also what brand tires they used, how many spokes on a wheel, etc. You personally may not be interested in that level of detail, but some people are and that kind of expertise comes in very handy when trying to verify documents and accounts (books, movies, oral).
Whether a man runs for president and says he is a war hero or writes a book which purports to be the Landser's eyeview of the war, you want to know things like "Was he really a soldier?", "Was he really where he says he was?", and "Do his statements match the facts?" The answers make all the difference in deciding if he is champion or a charlatan or maybejust something in-between.
Yes, of course, Sajer would have been a young man - **News Flash** - most men in war are young men!! The officer whose career I am researching made Division Commander at 40!!...You say he was not a professional soldier. I daresay that any infantryman who belongs to the premier division of any Army during years of front combat must demonstrate some basic knowledge of the uniform he wears and the tools of his trade (77s and spandaus indeed! - did he get that junk from a WW1 novel?). It's a matter of life and death to him...Too long ago to remember the details? Sajer didn't think so - he doesn't hesitate to throw in many details like 112 Killeringstrasse and what his "glorious memory" does not provide, he feels free to invent.
How do I know anybody is telling the truth? How exisitential of you! Maybe we should all stare at a candle and question ourselves?
But I've got a better idea - how about we look at this stuff objectively - compare claims to the known facts - weed out the good books from the bogus ones - and stick to military history rather than dimestore novels.
Frederick, you make some interesting, and correct, points in your opinion that any military auto-biography should be accurate. Most of us here have read about Heer Generals such as Rommel and Guderian and we expect that what they write about themselves, or as written by others, will be accurate and factual. But too, as pointed out by B.H. Liddell Hart in his book “The German Generals Talk”, some were not above embellishing events somewhat to favor their image.
But in the main books written by those who experienced war on a personal level we expect to be truthful and accurate. And most are, especially those written by Generals and senior officers. They had a much better grasp of the total situation and understood much more than say, a PFC or Gefreiter. When a lower rank writes of his experiences in combat his depth doesn’t extend much beyond his immediate surroundings and his buddies. And as time marches through the years details sometimes are lost in the memories. Happens to all of us. How many Landsers that have written of their experiences in the vastness of Russian knew exactly where they were? If the individuals’ memory in writing of his experiences years later makes mistakes in uniforms, weapons, units, places and battles, does it necessarily make him a fraud? Yes, if he should know better by his status. No, if he at the bottom of the hierarchy.
It doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of life.
If I may (hopefully without boring you to tears) let me make a few personal observations in dealing with past events. I spent the best parts of my life in the Marine Corps. Half of the career as enlisted and half as an officer. I lied about my age and joined in 1952 as a 16 year-old. Boot camp in those days still subjected recruits to some brutality in their training. I learned at a very young age about the harshness of military life. I can remember my platoon number and the names of my Drill Instructors but I do not remember which Battalion I was in. Is that important if I should write about it?
No.
My second time in Vietnam was with a helicopter squadron. We trained together in the states and deployed as a unit. We all knew each other. During the 13 months there time elements are just a blur. Events are remembered clearly but times and dates are long gone. We flew many Grunts on uncounted missions that sometimes ended in disaster for us and them. I do not remember which Marines we flew from which units just as they will not remember which CH-46 squadron carried them into another fire fight. Do these fragmented memories make me or them a fraud if we should write about personal combat experiences and get some of the details wrong?
Yes, if the writing is of a unit history. No, if we just want to record what personally happened all those years ago.
It has been pointed out that “The Forgotten Soldier” has some facts that are questionable but as Guy Sajer was writing from memory of past events and made mistakes does that make his whole story false? As I pointed out earlier neither you nor I really know whether these things happened to him.
As you and I both know military history is important and we want that history to be accurate. But it would be a mistake to condemn any personal account when mistakes are noted. We would be missing the human element of the past wars.
Yes, Frederick, most men in wars are young. It has always been that way. And unfortunately it will continue to be so. But what age was Field-Marshal von Rundstedt, Kluge, Manstein? Or even Eisenhower and Patton? Don’t forget that there are seniors in uniform too.
One last thing. “Professional Soldier” is military parlance for one who is making a career of it. This title does not apply to draftees and other enlistees who are in for 3 or 4 years. They may be professional in their training and accomplishments but if they ain’t making it a career they are not professional soldiers.
Just ordered the book “Five Years and Four Fronts” by Georg Grossjohann from Amazon. Have you read it? The description noted that Grossjohnn served in the Heer before the war started. I am curious about garrison life in the German Army during peace time.
Semper Fi,
Tom Mix
But in the main books written by those who experienced war on a personal level we expect to be truthful and accurate. And most are, especially those written by Generals and senior officers. They had a much better grasp of the total situation and understood much more than say, a PFC or Gefreiter. When a lower rank writes of his experiences in combat his depth doesn’t extend much beyond his immediate surroundings and his buddies. And as time marches through the years details sometimes are lost in the memories. Happens to all of us. How many Landsers that have written of their experiences in the vastness of Russian knew exactly where they were? If the individuals’ memory in writing of his experiences years later makes mistakes in uniforms, weapons, units, places and battles, does it necessarily make him a fraud? Yes, if he should know better by his status. No, if he at the bottom of the hierarchy.
It doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of life.
If I may (hopefully without boring you to tears) let me make a few personal observations in dealing with past events. I spent the best parts of my life in the Marine Corps. Half of the career as enlisted and half as an officer. I lied about my age and joined in 1952 as a 16 year-old. Boot camp in those days still subjected recruits to some brutality in their training. I learned at a very young age about the harshness of military life. I can remember my platoon number and the names of my Drill Instructors but I do not remember which Battalion I was in. Is that important if I should write about it?
No.
My second time in Vietnam was with a helicopter squadron. We trained together in the states and deployed as a unit. We all knew each other. During the 13 months there time elements are just a blur. Events are remembered clearly but times and dates are long gone. We flew many Grunts on uncounted missions that sometimes ended in disaster for us and them. I do not remember which Marines we flew from which units just as they will not remember which CH-46 squadron carried them into another fire fight. Do these fragmented memories make me or them a fraud if we should write about personal combat experiences and get some of the details wrong?
Yes, if the writing is of a unit history. No, if we just want to record what personally happened all those years ago.
It has been pointed out that “The Forgotten Soldier” has some facts that are questionable but as Guy Sajer was writing from memory of past events and made mistakes does that make his whole story false? As I pointed out earlier neither you nor I really know whether these things happened to him.
As you and I both know military history is important and we want that history to be accurate. But it would be a mistake to condemn any personal account when mistakes are noted. We would be missing the human element of the past wars.
Yes, Frederick, most men in wars are young. It has always been that way. And unfortunately it will continue to be so. But what age was Field-Marshal von Rundstedt, Kluge, Manstein? Or even Eisenhower and Patton? Don’t forget that there are seniors in uniform too.
One last thing. “Professional Soldier” is military parlance for one who is making a career of it. This title does not apply to draftees and other enlistees who are in for 3 or 4 years. They may be professional in their training and accomplishments but if they ain’t making it a career they are not professional soldiers.
Just ordered the book “Five Years and Four Fronts” by Georg Grossjohann from Amazon. Have you read it? The description noted that Grossjohnn served in the Heer before the war started. I am curious about garrison life in the German Army during peace time.
Semper Fi,
Tom Mix
Thomas,
You are missing the point if you believe that critics of this book are basing their opinion on a few embellishments/mistakes here and there. The main reason why some people argue that it can not be qualified as a historical autobiography and has to be treated with some skepticism, is that it contradicts a number of realities and facts.
Personally, I disagree with people who say that it should be accepted as factual until proven otherwise. In my opinion, it should be up to the author to prove beyond any doubt that this is indeed a historical autobiography if it is described as such.
Guy Mouminoux (born January 1927) is a French citizen (albeit having a German mother) and was 15 years old in 1942 when the compulsory service was introduced in Alsace. The decision to draft Alsacians was made in August 1942 and the initial incorporation in October focused on the classes 1920-1924. These recruits had already completed the RAD service and would now be sent to various units/branches for basic training. In short, Guy Mouminoux would have had to complete his RAD service in late 1941/early 1942 at an age where he was 14/15 years old! In addition, he would have never gone through basic training as I understand that he claims to have been on the Russian Front in late 1942.
While French citizens were also able to volunteer for the Wehrmacht/Waffen SS, only about 1600 did so and about 800 ended up joining German forces in 1941. The age requirements were the same as in Germany and individuals had to be between 18 and 45 years old. These volunteers were primarily comprised of right wing, anti-Bolshevik individuals. Again, it does not appear based on his story that he was a V.L.F. volunteer either.
I have seen numerous accounts in French where he is described as a “malgré-nous”, which is the description of Alsacians drafted in the German army. Again, the age and date discrepancies and the fact that he would have avoided going through the same basic training channels as thousands of other recruits, can only raise major skepticism.
I find it rather strange that a number of people, who absolutely believe that this is a historical autobiography, have so far only come up with counter assumptions and hypothetical answers in order to explain the numerous discrepancies. Yet, Mouminoux should have no problem today to produce either French or German military records proving his claims. The years of service count towards pensions and are well documented from German (WASt, etc.) and/or French (Anciens Combattants, etc.) side. Why not ask him to produce these records instead of explaining the historical discrepancies?
Again, I don’t want to take anything away from the message of this novel, however it would be great if people would take it for what it is and quit coming up with excuses for making it what it clearly isn’t.
Cheers,
Christian
You are missing the point if you believe that critics of this book are basing their opinion on a few embellishments/mistakes here and there. The main reason why some people argue that it can not be qualified as a historical autobiography and has to be treated with some skepticism, is that it contradicts a number of realities and facts.
Personally, I disagree with people who say that it should be accepted as factual until proven otherwise. In my opinion, it should be up to the author to prove beyond any doubt that this is indeed a historical autobiography if it is described as such.
Guy Mouminoux (born January 1927) is a French citizen (albeit having a German mother) and was 15 years old in 1942 when the compulsory service was introduced in Alsace. The decision to draft Alsacians was made in August 1942 and the initial incorporation in October focused on the classes 1920-1924. These recruits had already completed the RAD service and would now be sent to various units/branches for basic training. In short, Guy Mouminoux would have had to complete his RAD service in late 1941/early 1942 at an age where he was 14/15 years old! In addition, he would have never gone through basic training as I understand that he claims to have been on the Russian Front in late 1942.
While French citizens were also able to volunteer for the Wehrmacht/Waffen SS, only about 1600 did so and about 800 ended up joining German forces in 1941. The age requirements were the same as in Germany and individuals had to be between 18 and 45 years old. These volunteers were primarily comprised of right wing, anti-Bolshevik individuals. Again, it does not appear based on his story that he was a V.L.F. volunteer either.
I have seen numerous accounts in French where he is described as a “malgré-nous”, which is the description of Alsacians drafted in the German army. Again, the age and date discrepancies and the fact that he would have avoided going through the same basic training channels as thousands of other recruits, can only raise major skepticism.
I find it rather strange that a number of people, who absolutely believe that this is a historical autobiography, have so far only come up with counter assumptions and hypothetical answers in order to explain the numerous discrepancies. Yet, Mouminoux should have no problem today to produce either French or German military records proving his claims. The years of service count towards pensions and are well documented from German (WASt, etc.) and/or French (Anciens Combattants, etc.) side. Why not ask him to produce these records instead of explaining the historical discrepancies?
Again, I don’t want to take anything away from the message of this novel, however it would be great if people would take it for what it is and quit coming up with excuses for making it what it clearly isn’t.
Cheers,
Christian
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Frederick L Clemens
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- Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:39 am
- Location: Sterling VA
Tom -
You keep falling into the same trap over and over in discussing Sajer's book. Instead of confronting the specifics about Sajer, you keep reverting to generalities about vet accounts and human memories. You talk as if any book based supposedly on memory is unchallengeable. That is a fatally-flawed argument.
As regards your military service - it is totally irrelevant to a discussion of Sajer. Unless you served in the same foxhole as Sajer, it has no bearing on whether Sajer is a "forgetful soldier" or a "fabricating soldier".
For example, I have 22 years of military service I could list out and, in fact , I do remember my basic training unit (D-16-4, Drill Sergeant!), but I am willing to bet that will not convince a single Sajer reader one way or another. The important question, whether I remember my unit or not, is are the facts in Sajer's book close to reality or not?
That is why I stick to the very first of his lies on page 1. So far, the Sajer defenders conveniently dodge the issue of the "miracle pilot". As a military vet yourself, you should realize how childish the notion is of a 15-year old directly volunteering - and being accepted for - a position in a front-line air combat unit. It. Just. Doesn't. Happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So why would Sajer start off his book with a blatant fabrication? Well, it actually sets the stage for the many other fabrications to come. In contradiction to what you said about Sajer's purely grunt's eye-view, he actually names off quite a lot of events and places which a grunt would not have known. It's just where his own actions are concerned that his brain suddenly shrinks. You see Sajer is quite the intellectual man, as are most vets who write their own books as opposed to those using ghost writers. He knows exactly what he is putting in his book and he never fails to spice it up with fabricated references which will tickle his French audience's fancy. He is a shameless name-dropper when it comes to well-known characters like Stulpnagel, Rudel, and Guderian. They don't belong there except for that reason.
Christian -
It's nice of you to compliment Sajer as a novelist, however as a novelist of the Wehrmacht he fails.
He just didn't do enough homework to sprinkle his book with the realistic names (Dunde and Solma, indeed!!)and nomenclatures. If he were writing today, he would come in a poor second to Tom Clancy.
You keep falling into the same trap over and over in discussing Sajer's book. Instead of confronting the specifics about Sajer, you keep reverting to generalities about vet accounts and human memories. You talk as if any book based supposedly on memory is unchallengeable. That is a fatally-flawed argument.
As regards your military service - it is totally irrelevant to a discussion of Sajer. Unless you served in the same foxhole as Sajer, it has no bearing on whether Sajer is a "forgetful soldier" or a "fabricating soldier".
For example, I have 22 years of military service I could list out and, in fact , I do remember my basic training unit (D-16-4, Drill Sergeant!), but I am willing to bet that will not convince a single Sajer reader one way or another. The important question, whether I remember my unit or not, is are the facts in Sajer's book close to reality or not?
That is why I stick to the very first of his lies on page 1. So far, the Sajer defenders conveniently dodge the issue of the "miracle pilot". As a military vet yourself, you should realize how childish the notion is of a 15-year old directly volunteering - and being accepted for - a position in a front-line air combat unit. It. Just. Doesn't. Happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So why would Sajer start off his book with a blatant fabrication? Well, it actually sets the stage for the many other fabrications to come. In contradiction to what you said about Sajer's purely grunt's eye-view, he actually names off quite a lot of events and places which a grunt would not have known. It's just where his own actions are concerned that his brain suddenly shrinks. You see Sajer is quite the intellectual man, as are most vets who write their own books as opposed to those using ghost writers. He knows exactly what he is putting in his book and he never fails to spice it up with fabricated references which will tickle his French audience's fancy. He is a shameless name-dropper when it comes to well-known characters like Stulpnagel, Rudel, and Guderian. They don't belong there except for that reason.
Christian -
It's nice of you to compliment Sajer as a novelist, however as a novelist of the Wehrmacht he fails.
He just didn't do enough homework to sprinkle his book with the realistic names (Dunde and Solma, indeed!!)and nomenclatures. If he were writing today, he would come in a poor second to Tom Clancy.Frederick and Christian,
Using my military experiences as an example is in fact relevant as a comparison to this subject of Sajer’s book. It is exactly the same issue…should a veteran write of his experiences even if some of the facts might not be not correct?
Both of you are using The Forgotten Soldier as an historical subject and no where have I seen where it was intended as that. The man simply has written of his experiences, take it or leave it. If you or anyone else believes it to be false toss the book into a G.I. can and read something else. Where is it stated that his memoir is historical fact?
I would guess most books written by lower ranked soldiers of their combat experiences in any army are not intended for history, they are only what he may, or may not have done, and wants to talk about it. If the memories are sometimes faulty, incorrect statements are made…so what? Take these books with a grain of salt.
This very subject has come up before on this Forum. “Should a veteran write about his experiences?” Yes, I and others said. No, said a few. But of course that is really up to the veteran. A number of books on this subject were written out only for their families and were not intended for publication. A good example of this is “With the Old Breed” by Eugene Sledge. A Marine PFC who fought in the island campaigns in the Pacific. An excellent account of what it really is to be in the infantry. And it is bloody! He wrote of his experiences for his family and to release some of the lingering emotions that combat veterans’ experience. The decision was made to publish and lucky for us it was.
“Soldat” by Siegfried Knappe is another good read. And I am willing to bet a case of good German beer that some research in both his and Sledge’s book would turn up some historical mistakes. Would that disqualify their accounts?
Say….do you suppose we have beaten this subject to death?
Semper Fi,
Tom Mix
Using my military experiences as an example is in fact relevant as a comparison to this subject of Sajer’s book. It is exactly the same issue…should a veteran write of his experiences even if some of the facts might not be not correct?
Both of you are using The Forgotten Soldier as an historical subject and no where have I seen where it was intended as that. The man simply has written of his experiences, take it or leave it. If you or anyone else believes it to be false toss the book into a G.I. can and read something else. Where is it stated that his memoir is historical fact?
I would guess most books written by lower ranked soldiers of their combat experiences in any army are not intended for history, they are only what he may, or may not have done, and wants to talk about it. If the memories are sometimes faulty, incorrect statements are made…so what? Take these books with a grain of salt.
This very subject has come up before on this Forum. “Should a veteran write about his experiences?” Yes, I and others said. No, said a few. But of course that is really up to the veteran. A number of books on this subject were written out only for their families and were not intended for publication. A good example of this is “With the Old Breed” by Eugene Sledge. A Marine PFC who fought in the island campaigns in the Pacific. An excellent account of what it really is to be in the infantry. And it is bloody! He wrote of his experiences for his family and to release some of the lingering emotions that combat veterans’ experience. The decision was made to publish and lucky for us it was.
“Soldat” by Siegfried Knappe is another good read. And I am willing to bet a case of good German beer that some research in both his and Sledge’s book would turn up some historical mistakes. Would that disqualify their accounts?
Say….do you suppose we have beaten this subject to death?
Semper Fi,
Tom Mix
-
Frederick L Clemens
- Associate
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- Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:39 am
- Location: Sterling VA
Well, Tom, you really do want to stick with the assumption that Sajer is real and that any errors are honest, despite any evidence to the contrary.
It would be nice if there were no fabricators in this world, wouldn't it?
Unfortunately, it just ain't so. In my research of WW2 German records, I have read a lot of court martials involving fabricators - usually those who wore decorations they did not earn. I recently read the case of a soldier who wore a Knight's Cross home on leave, got a big community dinner hosted by the local party bigwigs, and then was written up in the newspaper - he was a fabricator.
A few years ago, I was asked by a small publisher to research a manuscript submitted by a German vet who wrote of his exploits at Eben Emael and the Ardennes among other famous battles. I ran into a problem when trying to verify his account in the official records, so I called him and asked him to send me personnel documents. He sent me forged papers. He was a fabricator. By coincidence, I asked a Knight's Cross winner in Germany about him. The vet's wife, who overhead me asking, laughed and said "Oh, you mean the storyteller!" What a tragedy that he could not simply tell the truth.
Sajer does present his book as factual, the historical truth - he never says otherwise. Based on my research, his book is a fabrication on the whole with some true things mixed in and yet it is accepted as fundamentally true by many who are honestly seeking to learn about life in the Wehrmacht. That is a slap in the face to the many vets I have met who suffered and sacrificed in the war. In case you haven't gotten the impression yet, I really, really despise fabricators. So no, I will never get tired of exposing charlatans like Sajer - it's what I do.
Knappe does have mistakes in his book, but he is no fabricator. I spoke with him once and he asked me what I thought of his book - he is the opposite of arrogant. I would never attack an honest vet like Knappe.
Grossjohann's book is good. I think it lacked some of the everyday life elements that would have made it great. Vets sometimes don't realize that it is the small things we would like to know as well as the big picture.
It would be nice if there were no fabricators in this world, wouldn't it?
Unfortunately, it just ain't so. In my research of WW2 German records, I have read a lot of court martials involving fabricators - usually those who wore decorations they did not earn. I recently read the case of a soldier who wore a Knight's Cross home on leave, got a big community dinner hosted by the local party bigwigs, and then was written up in the newspaper - he was a fabricator.
A few years ago, I was asked by a small publisher to research a manuscript submitted by a German vet who wrote of his exploits at Eben Emael and the Ardennes among other famous battles. I ran into a problem when trying to verify his account in the official records, so I called him and asked him to send me personnel documents. He sent me forged papers. He was a fabricator. By coincidence, I asked a Knight's Cross winner in Germany about him. The vet's wife, who overhead me asking, laughed and said "Oh, you mean the storyteller!" What a tragedy that he could not simply tell the truth.
Sajer does present his book as factual, the historical truth - he never says otherwise. Based on my research, his book is a fabrication on the whole with some true things mixed in and yet it is accepted as fundamentally true by many who are honestly seeking to learn about life in the Wehrmacht. That is a slap in the face to the many vets I have met who suffered and sacrificed in the war. In case you haven't gotten the impression yet, I really, really despise fabricators. So no, I will never get tired of exposing charlatans like Sajer - it's what I do.
Knappe does have mistakes in his book, but he is no fabricator. I spoke with him once and he asked me what I thought of his book - he is the opposite of arrogant. I would never attack an honest vet like Knappe.
Grossjohann's book is good. I think it lacked some of the everyday life elements that would have made it great. Vets sometimes don't realize that it is the small things we would like to know as well as the big picture.
Thomas,
Reading your posts it seems as if historical facts and realities are irrelevant to you. There is a world of difference between a veteran making a few minor and HONEST mistakes in a memoir, compared to the outrageous claims made by Sajer.
The fact that this guy claims that he was drafted by the Wehrmacht and sent to the Russian front at the age of 15 (1942) is probably just another lapse in his memory, right? The fact that thousands and thousands of recruits went through specific training channels (RAD & basic training) and he for some reason avoided all of that is probably just a minor detail, right? The fact that one minute it is claimed that he was drafted ("malgré-nous") and that the next minute he volunteered, is probably the same, right? Do you actually realize how ridiculous such claims are?
You also ask where it is stated that his book is historical fact. Well, there are a number of people today that keep making that claim, so maybe you should direct your question to such people and ask them why they believe that this book is factual. I am not one who share this belief.
Frederick is absolutely correct when he states that lending credibility to such creations only results in slapping honest veterans in the face. I have the privilege to know many veterans from both sides and I have never heard a single one making such outrageous claims. Furthermore, I am always intrigued when talking to German veterans about the fact that they still remember minute details of things they were taught in basic training. Wonder why?
Christian
Reading your posts it seems as if historical facts and realities are irrelevant to you. There is a world of difference between a veteran making a few minor and HONEST mistakes in a memoir, compared to the outrageous claims made by Sajer.
The fact that this guy claims that he was drafted by the Wehrmacht and sent to the Russian front at the age of 15 (1942) is probably just another lapse in his memory, right? The fact that thousands and thousands of recruits went through specific training channels (RAD & basic training) and he for some reason avoided all of that is probably just a minor detail, right? The fact that one minute it is claimed that he was drafted ("malgré-nous") and that the next minute he volunteered, is probably the same, right? Do you actually realize how ridiculous such claims are?
You also ask where it is stated that his book is historical fact. Well, there are a number of people today that keep making that claim, so maybe you should direct your question to such people and ask them why they believe that this book is factual. I am not one who share this belief.
Frederick is absolutely correct when he states that lending credibility to such creations only results in slapping honest veterans in the face. I have the privilege to know many veterans from both sides and I have never heard a single one making such outrageous claims. Furthermore, I am always intrigued when talking to German veterans about the fact that they still remember minute details of things they were taught in basic training. Wonder why?
Christian
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Frederick L Clemens
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Christian, could you or anyone else provide a translation of Dimitri's comments about his book from the interview you pointed out?
I think this is a crucial piece of information in this debate. For example, the book is called a "roman" (novel) and Guy Sajer is described as Dimitri's pseudonym. If this interview is the real thing, it should settle a number of key points about the nature of the book and "Sajer".
Here is the French:
BrusselsBdTour : Votre roman, "Le soldat oublié", publié chez Robert Laffont sous le pseudonyme de Guy Sajer vous a valu d'être qualifié d' "auteur maudit" de la BD française. Regrettez-vous de l'avoir publié ?
Dimitri : Pas le moins du monde. Si j'ai choisi de publier mon roman sous un pseudonyme était justement pour ne pas tout mélanger. Mais quelques pseudo-journalistes de l'époque se sont empressé de faire le lien entre les deux. Maintenant tout le monde sait que c'est moi, mais à l'époque, j'étais furieux. Je me suis fait virer de "Pilote" à cause de çà et cela me poursuivra jusqu'à ma mort et je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi. C'est une histoire, la mienne, celle d'un homme forcé de faire des choses qu'il n'avait pas envie de faire. Quand l'Alsace, où je vivais, a été annexée par l'Allemagne, j'avais 16 ans. D'un camp de jeunesse à Strasbourg, je passe à un camp de jeunesse à Kehl, en Allemagne. L'Arbeitsdienst, un groupe militarisé mais non armé n'était pas très glorieux. On rêvait d'être de vrais soldats, en ignorant tout de la guerre. Par un enchaînement naturel, je me retrouve dans la Wehrmacht, l'armée allemande. Qu'auriez-vous voulu que je fasse ? Comme déserteur, on m'aurait fusillé. A part la guerre qui a été une véritable atrocité, j'ai de bons souvenir de cette époque-là. Pendant la guerre, je ne savais pas ce qui se passait. On traînait dans la boue, on ne dormait pas et on avait peur, c'était la terreur. J'ai appris énormément de choses après la guerre, auparavant je n'ai pas eu de problème moral ou éthique puisque je n'avais aucune idée de ce qui se passait. Mais je ne regrette rien, je suis content d'avoir connu çà, même si c'était très dur. J'ai vu les russes se conduire comme des monstres, je suis allé sur le front de l'Est et j'ai vécu les plus grandes peurs de ma vie. Pourtant je suis retourné plusieurs fois en Russie depuis, je ne suis amer envers personne. Mais il est clair que dès la publication du " Soldat Oublié ", j'ai été catalogué " facho ". Si les gens veulent le croire c'est leur problème, il y a bien longtemps que je ne me préoccupe plus de tout çà. " Le Soldat Oublié " a été réédité des dizaine de fois, et a rapporté une fortune à Robert Laffont. Il m'a permis de vivre pendant des années. C'est toujours aujourd'hui un best-seller traduit bon nombre de langues. Je suis en pourparlers avec Paul Verhoeven depuis quelque temps pour la réalisation du long métrage.
And here is a portion of Dimitri's bio:
Dimitri est né le 13 janvier 1927 à Paris. Dès l'âge de 3 ans, il se met au dessin. Son enfance est d'ailleurs marquée par la recherche incessante du papier qu'il noircit avec assiduité. Très jeune, il quitte Paris pour l'Alsace, où il passera son enfance et son adolescence. Par la force des choses, à 16 ans, en 1943, il se retrouve enrôlé dans la Wermarcht. Il sera très vite envoyé sur le Front de l'Est, en ex-URSS. De cette expérience traumatisante, il tirera un ouvrage, "Le soldat oublié", publié dans les années 60 sous son nom de plume, "Guy Sajer". Après la guerre, il monte à Paris où il connaît les petits boulots conjugués aux investigations auprès des éditeurs. Il débute dans "Nous les jeunes" fin 1946-1947 avec "Les aventures de Monsieur Minus" et signe quelques strips dans "Coeurs-vaillant". Il signe alors du nom de "Mouminoux".
I think this is a crucial piece of information in this debate. For example, the book is called a "roman" (novel) and Guy Sajer is described as Dimitri's pseudonym. If this interview is the real thing, it should settle a number of key points about the nature of the book and "Sajer".
Here is the French:
BrusselsBdTour : Votre roman, "Le soldat oublié", publié chez Robert Laffont sous le pseudonyme de Guy Sajer vous a valu d'être qualifié d' "auteur maudit" de la BD française. Regrettez-vous de l'avoir publié ?
Dimitri : Pas le moins du monde. Si j'ai choisi de publier mon roman sous un pseudonyme était justement pour ne pas tout mélanger. Mais quelques pseudo-journalistes de l'époque se sont empressé de faire le lien entre les deux. Maintenant tout le monde sait que c'est moi, mais à l'époque, j'étais furieux. Je me suis fait virer de "Pilote" à cause de çà et cela me poursuivra jusqu'à ma mort et je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi. C'est une histoire, la mienne, celle d'un homme forcé de faire des choses qu'il n'avait pas envie de faire. Quand l'Alsace, où je vivais, a été annexée par l'Allemagne, j'avais 16 ans. D'un camp de jeunesse à Strasbourg, je passe à un camp de jeunesse à Kehl, en Allemagne. L'Arbeitsdienst, un groupe militarisé mais non armé n'était pas très glorieux. On rêvait d'être de vrais soldats, en ignorant tout de la guerre. Par un enchaînement naturel, je me retrouve dans la Wehrmacht, l'armée allemande. Qu'auriez-vous voulu que je fasse ? Comme déserteur, on m'aurait fusillé. A part la guerre qui a été une véritable atrocité, j'ai de bons souvenir de cette époque-là. Pendant la guerre, je ne savais pas ce qui se passait. On traînait dans la boue, on ne dormait pas et on avait peur, c'était la terreur. J'ai appris énormément de choses après la guerre, auparavant je n'ai pas eu de problème moral ou éthique puisque je n'avais aucune idée de ce qui se passait. Mais je ne regrette rien, je suis content d'avoir connu çà, même si c'était très dur. J'ai vu les russes se conduire comme des monstres, je suis allé sur le front de l'Est et j'ai vécu les plus grandes peurs de ma vie. Pourtant je suis retourné plusieurs fois en Russie depuis, je ne suis amer envers personne. Mais il est clair que dès la publication du " Soldat Oublié ", j'ai été catalogué " facho ". Si les gens veulent le croire c'est leur problème, il y a bien longtemps que je ne me préoccupe plus de tout çà. " Le Soldat Oublié " a été réédité des dizaine de fois, et a rapporté une fortune à Robert Laffont. Il m'a permis de vivre pendant des années. C'est toujours aujourd'hui un best-seller traduit bon nombre de langues. Je suis en pourparlers avec Paul Verhoeven depuis quelque temps pour la réalisation du long métrage.
And here is a portion of Dimitri's bio:
Dimitri est né le 13 janvier 1927 à Paris. Dès l'âge de 3 ans, il se met au dessin. Son enfance est d'ailleurs marquée par la recherche incessante du papier qu'il noircit avec assiduité. Très jeune, il quitte Paris pour l'Alsace, où il passera son enfance et son adolescence. Par la force des choses, à 16 ans, en 1943, il se retrouve enrôlé dans la Wermarcht. Il sera très vite envoyé sur le Front de l'Est, en ex-URSS. De cette expérience traumatisante, il tirera un ouvrage, "Le soldat oublié", publié dans les années 60 sous son nom de plume, "Guy Sajer". Après la guerre, il monte à Paris où il connaît les petits boulots conjugués aux investigations auprès des éditeurs. Il débute dans "Nous les jeunes" fin 1946-1947 avec "Les aventures de Monsieur Minus" et signe quelques strips dans "Coeurs-vaillant". Il signe alors du nom de "Mouminoux".
Frederick,
Here are both translations:
BrusselsBdTour: Your novel “The Forgotten Soldier”, published by Robert Laffont under the pseudonym of Guy Sajer, was the main reason why you were described as a “dammed author” by the French cartoon industry. Do you regret that you published the book?
Dimitri: Not at all. If I chose to publish this novel using a pseudonym, it was mainly to avoid mixing things up. However, a few pseudo journalists at the time were eager to make the correlation between the two (*). Now everybody knows that it is me, although at the time I was furious. I was fired by “Pilote” for this reason and this will haunt me to my death as I don’t understand why. It is a story, mine, the story of a man forced to do things that he did not want to do (**). When Alsace, where I lived, was annexed by Germany, I was 16 years old (***). From a youth camp in Strasbourg, I “crossed” to a youth camp in Kehl, in Germany. The Arbeitsdienst, a non-armed, militarized group was not very glorious. We were dreaming of being real soldiers, yet we ignored everything of war. By a “natural sequence” I find myself in the Wehrmacht, the German Army. What would you have wanted me to do? As a deserter I would have been shot. Apart from the war which was a real ordeal, I have good memories of that time. During the war, I did not know what was going on. We were struggling through the mud, we would not be able to sleep and we were afraid; it was terror. I learned a tremendous amount after the war; before I had no moral or ethical issues as I did not know what was going on. However, I do not have any regrets, I am happy to have had this experience even if it was hard. I saw the Russians handle themselves like monsters; I went to the Russian front and had the biggest fears of my life. Even though I have gone back to Russia on several occasions, I am not bitter toward anybody. However, it is clear that as soon as the “Forgotten Soldier” was published, I was labeled as a fascist. If people want to believe this it is their problem; it has been a long time since I have worried about such things. “The Forgotten Soldier” was published in several editions and made a fortune for Robert Laffont. It has been my main source of income for years. It is still to this date a best seller, translated in numerous languages. I am in discussions with Paul Verhoeven for some time now about the possibility to make it into a movie.
Comments:
(*) He is referring to his profession as a cartoonist and his book.
(**) This statement again would indicate that he was drafted by the German Army against his will - "malgré-nous.
(***) Alsace was annexed in August 1940 – Mouminoux was 13 at the time. I sure it is his counting ability that must be failing here.
Dimitri's bio:
Dimitri was born on January 13th, 1927 in Paris. At three years of age he starts to draw. His youth is characterized by his search for paper that he attentively draws on. He leaves Paris for Alsace at a young age and this is where if is going to spend his youth and adolescence.
By the turn of events, in 1943, at 16 years of age, he finds himself drafted by the Wehrmacht. He is very rapidly sent to the Eastern front, in the ex Soviet Union. From this traumatic experience he will write the book “The Forgotten Soldier”, published in the 60’s under the pen name “Guy Sajer”. After the war, he comes back to Paris where he takes on small little jobs that he finds by contacting editors. He starts in “Nous les Jeunes” end of 1946 – 1947 with “The adventures of Mister Minus” and signs a few comic strips in “Coeurs-vaillant”. At that time he signs by the name Mouminoux.
Overall, I need to add another comment. When I read this intereview in French, I do at no time detect any evidence that we might be dealing here with somebody who is senile, etc. It is obvious that Mouminoux is very good with words and he uses them in a very careful/measured manner. This is particularly true in the passage about his incorporation into the German Army. Not a single conclusive statement. It is always a "natural sequence", "finding himself", "force to this", etc.
This guy knows exactly how far he can go...
Christian
Here are both translations:
BrusselsBdTour: Your novel “The Forgotten Soldier”, published by Robert Laffont under the pseudonym of Guy Sajer, was the main reason why you were described as a “dammed author” by the French cartoon industry. Do you regret that you published the book?
Dimitri: Not at all. If I chose to publish this novel using a pseudonym, it was mainly to avoid mixing things up. However, a few pseudo journalists at the time were eager to make the correlation between the two (*). Now everybody knows that it is me, although at the time I was furious. I was fired by “Pilote” for this reason and this will haunt me to my death as I don’t understand why. It is a story, mine, the story of a man forced to do things that he did not want to do (**). When Alsace, where I lived, was annexed by Germany, I was 16 years old (***). From a youth camp in Strasbourg, I “crossed” to a youth camp in Kehl, in Germany. The Arbeitsdienst, a non-armed, militarized group was not very glorious. We were dreaming of being real soldiers, yet we ignored everything of war. By a “natural sequence” I find myself in the Wehrmacht, the German Army. What would you have wanted me to do? As a deserter I would have been shot. Apart from the war which was a real ordeal, I have good memories of that time. During the war, I did not know what was going on. We were struggling through the mud, we would not be able to sleep and we were afraid; it was terror. I learned a tremendous amount after the war; before I had no moral or ethical issues as I did not know what was going on. However, I do not have any regrets, I am happy to have had this experience even if it was hard. I saw the Russians handle themselves like monsters; I went to the Russian front and had the biggest fears of my life. Even though I have gone back to Russia on several occasions, I am not bitter toward anybody. However, it is clear that as soon as the “Forgotten Soldier” was published, I was labeled as a fascist. If people want to believe this it is their problem; it has been a long time since I have worried about such things. “The Forgotten Soldier” was published in several editions and made a fortune for Robert Laffont. It has been my main source of income for years. It is still to this date a best seller, translated in numerous languages. I am in discussions with Paul Verhoeven for some time now about the possibility to make it into a movie.
Comments:
(*) He is referring to his profession as a cartoonist and his book.
(**) This statement again would indicate that he was drafted by the German Army against his will - "malgré-nous.
(***) Alsace was annexed in August 1940 – Mouminoux was 13 at the time. I sure it is his counting ability that must be failing here.
Dimitri's bio:
Dimitri was born on January 13th, 1927 in Paris. At three years of age he starts to draw. His youth is characterized by his search for paper that he attentively draws on. He leaves Paris for Alsace at a young age and this is where if is going to spend his youth and adolescence.
By the turn of events, in 1943, at 16 years of age, he finds himself drafted by the Wehrmacht. He is very rapidly sent to the Eastern front, in the ex Soviet Union. From this traumatic experience he will write the book “The Forgotten Soldier”, published in the 60’s under the pen name “Guy Sajer”. After the war, he comes back to Paris where he takes on small little jobs that he finds by contacting editors. He starts in “Nous les Jeunes” end of 1946 – 1947 with “The adventures of Mister Minus” and signs a few comic strips in “Coeurs-vaillant”. At that time he signs by the name Mouminoux.
Overall, I need to add another comment. When I read this intereview in French, I do at no time detect any evidence that we might be dealing here with somebody who is senile, etc. It is obvious that Mouminoux is very good with words and he uses them in a very careful/measured manner. This is particularly true in the passage about his incorporation into the German Army. Not a single conclusive statement. It is always a "natural sequence", "finding himself", "force to this", etc.
This guy knows exactly how far he can go...
Christian
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Frederick L Clemens
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- Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:39 am
- Location: Sterling VA
Thanks very much for the translation, Christian. I think this interview clears up some basic points which people have been debating since the book was first published in English.
- the book is a novel, not an autobiography
- Guy Sajer is a pseudonym, not the name of an actual German soldier
- the dates and the career of "Guy Sajer" do not match those of the author except in some vague way that they both came from Alsace and they both served on the "East Front".
These facts - as established by the author himself - explain many things in the book, but leave other questions still open.
- any problems/errors/fabrications in the book stem from the fact that the story as a whole is an invention.
- any corroboration by other German vets of the existence of "Guy Sajer" as a German soldier are by definition false. You cannot verify a ficitional character.
- the degree to which the experiences of "Sajer" match the experiences of the author is unknown and - unless the author chooses to clarify - we can only deduce or speculate on this match-up from the clues contained in the book.
- why doesn't the author further clear up this mystery? I think the answer lies in what he said in the interview:
“The Forgotten Soldier” was published in several editions and made a fortune for Robert Laffont. It has been my main source of income for years.
Certainly, the author has no desire to kill the golden goose by revealing possibly that he never was a member of Grossdeutschland or perhaps that he did not personally experience a number of the events described in the book.
I am curious whether the author served an "Al-Gore-Tour" on the Eastern Front or whether he was a true combat soldier. Many people claim the "emotions are real". I am not impressed by that argument. Any good fiction writer can "fake sincerity", especially when he is free to invent situations and characters as this author was.
I remain with my judgement that TFS is severely flawed as a novel of the Wehrmacht due to its many erroneous elements and unrealities, but I will reexamine the book over time with the help of this new information. I will be curious to see if there are clues to suggest or deny that the author ever served in Grossdeutschland or at least knew someone who did. It is clear that even if the author was a GD grunt, he made use of outside sources post-war for some of the main GD locations. The real determination may come from examination of micro actions such as his claimed "Siege of Boporeivska".
- the book is a novel, not an autobiography
- Guy Sajer is a pseudonym, not the name of an actual German soldier
- the dates and the career of "Guy Sajer" do not match those of the author except in some vague way that they both came from Alsace and they both served on the "East Front".
These facts - as established by the author himself - explain many things in the book, but leave other questions still open.
- any problems/errors/fabrications in the book stem from the fact that the story as a whole is an invention.
- any corroboration by other German vets of the existence of "Guy Sajer" as a German soldier are by definition false. You cannot verify a ficitional character.
- the degree to which the experiences of "Sajer" match the experiences of the author is unknown and - unless the author chooses to clarify - we can only deduce or speculate on this match-up from the clues contained in the book.
- why doesn't the author further clear up this mystery? I think the answer lies in what he said in the interview:
“The Forgotten Soldier” was published in several editions and made a fortune for Robert Laffont. It has been my main source of income for years.
Certainly, the author has no desire to kill the golden goose by revealing possibly that he never was a member of Grossdeutschland or perhaps that he did not personally experience a number of the events described in the book.
I am curious whether the author served an "Al-Gore-Tour" on the Eastern Front or whether he was a true combat soldier. Many people claim the "emotions are real". I am not impressed by that argument. Any good fiction writer can "fake sincerity", especially when he is free to invent situations and characters as this author was.
I remain with my judgement that TFS is severely flawed as a novel of the Wehrmacht due to its many erroneous elements and unrealities, but I will reexamine the book over time with the help of this new information. I will be curious to see if there are clues to suggest or deny that the author ever served in Grossdeutschland or at least knew someone who did. It is clear that even if the author was a GD grunt, he made use of outside sources post-war for some of the main GD locations. The real determination may come from examination of micro actions such as his claimed "Siege of Boporeivska".
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JoseFrancis
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While I know this is an old debate, I would just like to add some comments:
.......but I must admit that it seems that his age doesn't appear correct according to his birth date (Jan '27) which makes me lean that Sajer's book could be fiction (sadly).
Sorry for my grammar! It's late.
Wasn't he suppose to join the French army because the French officer asked him to? IIRC, he ended up in a PoW where he would meet a French officer and he would ask Sajer to join the French army to "redeem" himself.He claims that he was serving in the French Navy in 1946 (Probably a French aircraft carrier ). Given the fact that he was 19 at the time, this could indeed correspond to the compulsory military service requirement in France. However, I know several real "malgrés-nous" from Alsace and not a single one was required to serve a year in the French forces after the war. Isn't that strange?
Isin't the interview done orally? If so, then I believe it would be quite normal if he said roman since it could also mean "book" in french.It is interesting that he describes the "Improbable Soldier", sorry the "Forgotten Soldier", as a "roman" which in French means "novel". In short people, we are talking about fiction. Why would he not refer to his book as his "mémoire"? Isn't that strange?
I find that answer quite acceptable since Stephanie asked him wether he regretted writting the book or not (since it damaged his reputation).And here is the kicker, he states that the "Improbable Soldier" made a fortune for the publisher Robert Laffont and it was his major source of revenue for years. Now that is not strange, it is just good business sense.
.......but I must admit that it seems that his age doesn't appear correct according to his birth date (Jan '27) which makes me lean that Sajer's book could be fiction (sadly).
Sorry for my grammar! It's late.
Sajer's Age
Just a little point - nowadays, the term "Roman" in French also means just about any kind of inexpensive paperback book - fiction, non-fiction, biography, whatever....while 20 or 30 years ago it did usually mean a work of fiction.
Funny, in an early Bd interview in the 1960s, Sajer's year of birth was given as 1926 --- also, in the original French hardcover edition, in a preface not found in the English edition, his year of birth was also given as 1926. I was able to confirm this via a French military source as well.
And technically, Sajer wasn't exactly a Malgre Nous --- his father was French, his mother German. While he was living in Alsace when he volunteered for the Wehrmacht (he wasn't drafted - he was 16 when he enlisted, which was authorized beginning in 1942), he was considered by the French to be of French extraction, not German. The Germans saw it otherwise, seeing him as a German (Because of his mother, probably). Anyway, he enlisted as a German, not as a Frenchman. Most of the Malgre Nous were those Frenchmen of German descent living in Alsace-Lorraine - those with either German fathers and mothers, or at least German fathers. Like I said, Sajer, whose last name is really Mouminoux, was considered a Frenchman and felt that he was French - I know it's all sort of technical, but it goes to show why he was allowed to enlist in the French Armed Forces after the war. Technically, he wasn't a Malgre Nous so he was still eligible to serve, which he did for about a year until he was medically discharged. It would be interesting if Sajer himself would ever come out and try to clear up the situation, but he probably won't.
PS: The movie that was to be made about his book is now in jeopardy - he has imposed quite a few conditions that make it almost impossible for a contract to be signed, much less a move to be made. Alors!
Funny, in an early Bd interview in the 1960s, Sajer's year of birth was given as 1926 --- also, in the original French hardcover edition, in a preface not found in the English edition, his year of birth was also given as 1926. I was able to confirm this via a French military source as well.
And technically, Sajer wasn't exactly a Malgre Nous --- his father was French, his mother German. While he was living in Alsace when he volunteered for the Wehrmacht (he wasn't drafted - he was 16 when he enlisted, which was authorized beginning in 1942), he was considered by the French to be of French extraction, not German. The Germans saw it otherwise, seeing him as a German (Because of his mother, probably). Anyway, he enlisted as a German, not as a Frenchman. Most of the Malgre Nous were those Frenchmen of German descent living in Alsace-Lorraine - those with either German fathers and mothers, or at least German fathers. Like I said, Sajer, whose last name is really Mouminoux, was considered a Frenchman and felt that he was French - I know it's all sort of technical, but it goes to show why he was allowed to enlist in the French Armed Forces after the war. Technically, he wasn't a Malgre Nous so he was still eligible to serve, which he did for about a year until he was medically discharged. It would be interesting if Sajer himself would ever come out and try to clear up the situation, but he probably won't.
PS: The movie that was to be made about his book is now in jeopardy - he has imposed quite a few conditions that make it almost impossible for a contract to be signed, much less a move to be made. Alors!
Thread is a little old but I was searching for info about the book and came across it. I personally think the book is a real account, but not entirely true as memories tend to fade (and get embellished) a bit after 10 or more years.
As far as the comments made about the interview sajer gave in 2003, I think it’s a pretty bad he can’t get his facts right. I went over to my grandfather’s house and asked him about his tractors he had on the farm back in 1950 and he sputtered out gibberish. Sajer was 76 when he gave the interview and unless you sat there with him and took into account any physical, age related issues he may have had its pretty hard to trust him to go to the bathroom by himself let alone recall specific details from 60 years back.
So if he had problems recalling which arm his patches were on ten years after the fact, you want us to believe he is suddenly going to recant his memories precisely 60 years later? I think you can toss the interview as any sort of rebuttal to inconsistencies in the book.
As far as the comments made about the interview sajer gave in 2003, I think it’s a pretty bad he can’t get his facts right. I went over to my grandfather’s house and asked him about his tractors he had on the farm back in 1950 and he sputtered out gibberish. Sajer was 76 when he gave the interview and unless you sat there with him and took into account any physical, age related issues he may have had its pretty hard to trust him to go to the bathroom by himself let alone recall specific details from 60 years back.
So if he had problems recalling which arm his patches were on ten years after the fact, you want us to believe he is suddenly going to recant his memories precisely 60 years later? I think you can toss the interview as any sort of rebuttal to inconsistencies in the book.
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Frederick L Clemens
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lordo, you are free to have an opinion, but the sum total of your post is to say that both the book and the interview are unreliable due to the errors of human memory. Bravo, lad! You just made the same excuse for Sajer that hundreds of others have made in similar debates over the years on this book.
Now, maybe if you had some facts to throw into the mix, you could make a real contribution. Although, I have disagreed with Doug Nash about Sajer before (he is pro, I am anti) at least he has gotten off his ass and actually researched and presented information which he hoped would support Sajer. I haven't seen a single other Sajer supporter provide anything beyond excuses like bad memory, bad translation, rectal itch, etc.
Please, if anyone else wants to support Sajer, please, please:
1) stop talking to us about your feelings
2) know your Wehrmacht a$$ from a hole in the ground
3) demonstrate that you know a little German beyond "Achtung, Schnell, Schweinehund!"
and most importantly,
4) pick a bogus element of Sajer's story, like his Stukaboy rantings on page one, and come up with a rational and well-researched discussion of why Sajer doesn't belong in a looney bin when he makes claims like that.
Now, maybe if you had some facts to throw into the mix, you could make a real contribution. Although, I have disagreed with Doug Nash about Sajer before (he is pro, I am anti) at least he has gotten off his ass and actually researched and presented information which he hoped would support Sajer. I haven't seen a single other Sajer supporter provide anything beyond excuses like bad memory, bad translation, rectal itch, etc.
Please, if anyone else wants to support Sajer, please, please:
1) stop talking to us about your feelings
2) know your Wehrmacht a$$ from a hole in the ground
3) demonstrate that you know a little German beyond "Achtung, Schnell, Schweinehund!"
and most importantly,
4) pick a bogus element of Sajer's story, like his Stukaboy rantings on page one, and come up with a rational and well-researched discussion of why Sajer doesn't belong in a looney bin when he makes claims like that.