"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer

[Christian]

Just a little point - nowadays, the term "Roman" in French also means just about any kind of inexpensive paperback book - fiction, non-fiction, biography, whatever....while 20 or 30 years ago it did usually mean a work of fiction.

Doug,
Given that my native language is French I can't agree with your statement and I am wondering was the basis is for it. There are plenty of French terms to describe a non-fiction, biography, etc. book and I have yet to hear anybody refer to such a book as a "roman", which is the French term for novel. Paperback books are referred to as "livres de poche".

Most of the Malgre Nous were those Frenchmen of German descent living in Alsace-Lorraine - those with either German fathers and mothers, or at least German fathers.

This is incorrect. Malgré-nous were in fact French nationals who had been declared Volksdeutsche on the basis of racial/ethnic guidelines established by German occupation authorities. In short, it had nothing to do with either parent being German, but was based on cultural, language and other issues. The vast majority of these young men, if not all, had French parents.
To the best of my knowledge, a person of German parent living in Alsace during the occupation would have automatically been considered a German national and thus it is correct that Mouminoux could not have been a "Malgré-nous".

Regards,

Christian

[Christian]

Lordo,

Mouminoux's book was published for the first time in 1957, and by all accounts he was about 30 years old that time. A little early to be senile, no? He remembers street names, house numbers, names, etc. yet fails to remember key details about the uniform of the elite unit he claims to have served in, etc.

While some WWII veterans indeed have a hard time remembering things, there are equally as many who still have a very sharp memory today and can provide accounts with great detail.

Either way, the controversy surrounding this book will remain as Mouminoux has no intention to come forward with the evidence supporting that this is a true account.

Christian

[Frederick L Clemens]

He remembers street names, house numbers, names, etc. yet fails to remember key details about the uniform of the elite unit he claims to have served in, etc.

Yes, Christian, the Sajer character shows some amazing level of detail for things which a Gefreiter could not be expected to know (can anyone say "postwar research"?), but then his "memory" fails when it comes to very basic things which are life and death to a soldier.

The Sajer supporters often belittle his error about the sleeve for his GD cufftitle, but in interrogation reports of GD vets with FBB who were captured by the US, I have seen them to be very insistent about the fact that they wore their cufftitle on the opposite side from the SS. They were fearful about being confused with the SS and shot on capture. The Sajer character was supposed to have been with GD for about 2 years, certainly long enough to have been deeply ingrained with the layout of his own uniform and the distinction versus the SS. A "translation error", maybe? Many have claimed such but noone has ever quoted this or another case to prove that a single translation error exists in TFS.

While any vet's account is subject to human error - even I could make a mistake about what I ate yesterday morning! - it is quite legitimate and necessary to examine these errors and their effect on the overall story. Put another way, to judge the Sajer story as historically authentic, let alone as a classic, we have to answer these questions:

1) How many errors are there?
2) Do all the errors stem from honest mistakes or is their evidence of fabrication?
3) On balance, do the errors undercut the value of the book as a learning tool about this man's experience and/or the experience of German soldiers in general?

My answers are:
1) So numerous that it seems like an average of one error per page. It might be interesting to do a page-by-page survey sometime.
2) There is clearly evidence of fabrication in events, character names, celebrity names, and procedures.
3) Bottom line for me is that any book with fabrications about a man's experience is worth trashing, but the fact that the fabrications don't even hold true for the experience of German soldiers in general truly damns the book in my eyes.

[Spandau]

Avete,

Having read this book some time ago, I confess that the numerous errors regarding uniform and insignia that have been pointed out on this forum were rather distracting. These inaccuracies caused me to take all of his other technicalities with a grain of salt, making "The Forgotten Soldier" next to useless as a point of reference regarding the German war machine.

But that doesn't detract at all from the philosophical and literary strengths of the book. I am closely aquainted to a Vietnam veteran and former Literature professor who agrees with me on this point. Even if Sajer never fought in the German Army, this haunted marine had no doubt in his mind that Sajer had experienced combat. His words rang true, apparently.

He referred me to an impressive book about Vietnam called "The Things They Carried" by Tim O-Brien. There is an excellent chapter that called "How to Tell a True War Story" that you all should read.
You can find it here:

http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/Writi ... e_war.html

O'Brien sums it all up with the statement,
"Absolute occurrence is irrelevant. A thing may happen and be a total lie; another thing may not happen and be truer than the truth."
Whether or not anything in "The Forgotten Soldier" actually happened, Sajer's story is a true one.

It is a true story of humanity that may or may not have occurred.

Avete,

-Spandau

[Frederick L Clemens]

Whether or not anything in "The Forgotten Soldier" actually happened, Sajer's story is a true one.

Ha, ha - maybe you should work for CBS and Dan Rather!

Okay, so the book makes you feel warm and fuzzy...then put it on the shelf marked "Clever Fiction for People Who Don't Want to Know Crap About the Wehrmacht"

[Spandau]

Ave Frederick.

You didn't read the link I posted, did you? You should, because I think you missed my point. I realize that my statement seemed paradoxical, but it was intentional, I didn't just pull a George W. Bush!

Yes, I agree, Sajer taught me nothing about the mechanics of the German war machine or even about historical events, and it should be placed in the literature section and not in the history section of libraries and bookstores. But that is of lesser importance. I don't read Sassoon because I want to discern what sort of boots he wore. Memoirs are to be read for their human aspect, you read textbooks for the technicalities, which are important. Although Sajer is useless as an information source, his book is still of historical importance.

What is the study of history if not the study of mankind? The knowledge I possess about the Wehrmacht's, uniforms, weapons, tactics, etc. only serves as useful contextual information that allows for greater understanding of the human aspect of the whole affair, which is the most significant aspect.

What do you want more, information or wisdom? I strive for wisdom, and I seek information merely as means to attain it.

Vale,

-Spandau

(Warm and fuzzy? It didn't meake me feel like that! Are you sure it wasn't the Schnapps? )

[Frederick L Clemens]

Spandau, I really think you can have both fact and philosophy in a war memoir and that is what I demand. Although I too prefer the human element over the mechanistic, I use the details as a way to weed out the pretenders. You can tell when a vet makes honest mistakes versus the lies of a con artist.

I simply do not trust Sajer...not because he makes so many individual errors, but because he clearly makes up parts of his story. I point again and again to the first page of his book where he sets the precedent of fabrication. He never would have spent wonderful hours in a Stuka as he claims. That's not just a fabrication of technical facts, it is a fabrication of who the character is and what experiences have shaped him.

What is there to admire about that?

[Spandau]

That's not just a fabrication of technical facts, it is a fabrication of who the character is and what experiences have shaped him.

What is there to admire about that?

Ave Frederick,

Yes, it is difficult to admire the actual act of dishonesty without being aware of it's intentions. But I don't think "Sajer" was necessarily speaking about himself. His character, Guy Sajer, was probably a fictional character much like Kurt Steiner in "The Cross of Iron" and Paul in "All Quiet on the Western Front." Sajer was likely an avatar through which the author could express his war experiences. The Stuka flight was probably an expression of the authors infatuation with flight that went awry due to inadequate research.

We both agree that Sajer did not fight in the Grossdeutschland, but I still think that "Sajer" saw combat in some form. Something about it rings true. I feel it, veterans I know have felt it, and despite his errors, members of this forum have felt it. Maybe "Sajer" was in Vietnam or in some French Foriegn Legion battles. Perhaps he felt that the world's view of the German Soldier would only suit his purposes.

After all, I'm only 18 and maybe, I am absolutely wrong and "Sajer" is some money hungry con artist, but I doubt it. The literate veteran I know, is not easily fooled, and I trust his perceptions. Like you, niether of us (The veteran and I) trust his facts, but his insights are a different matter. Insights, like mathematical equations, can be tested by all to some degree, and his have undergone close scrutiny by many.

So, if I am correct, why did Sajer try to pass it off as a factual memoir? Well, perhaps he was desperate for money, recognition, or he really wanted the readers to feel as he did in, say, combat in Laos. I don't know. In any case, he has moved thousands of people, and that is admirable. As I see it, Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, etc. have lied about technicalities but nevertheless delivered a few good messages. So if everything he said was a lie, the essence of "The Forgotten Soldier" was true to the ambiguous nature of war.

If nothing else, "Sajer" is an engaging writer and a good storyteller, and I couldn't write anything of the same calibre.

Vale,

-Spandau

[panzerschreck1]

I am finally convinced that the book is based on true memoirs according the horror of the eastern front, but sajer never joined and fought within the GD
just look at the claim of having fought at konotop..the 183rd I.D. fought there and there are no accounts of GD fighting in konotop.

He also skipps a whole year 1944, with mentioning only a few memoirs.
All the other claims are highly questionable!

To bad because i really thought it was a genuine.
I cincerely hope mr Verhoeven will not base an entire movie on speculative claims!

[Doug Nash]

Well, good grief - it really does pay for someone to read all the previous posts on a topic - it sure would avoid having to do the whole argument all over again!

Fred Clemens and I have both attacked this topic from different viewpoints and we have both respectfully agreed to disagree.

There are some facts about Sajer that are, I believe, indisputable:

His real name is Guy Mouminoux
His Mother's last name was Sajer and she was born in Gotha, Germany
His Father, Monsieur Mouminoux, was from the Massif Central region of France
He was born in Paris 13 January 1926 (not 1927 as has been stated on some websites - but the difference of one year makes a big difference to his story)
He grew up in Wissembourg (Weissenburg) in Alsace-Lorraine
He served in the French Navy from 1945 - 46
He wrote the book using a nom de Plume of Guy Sajer - his real first name and his mother's maiden name.
He is a famous French cartoonist who often goes by the name Dimitri Lehache (the Hatchet)

The following is probably/most likely true, but cannot be proven with 100% certainty:
He was performing Labor Service in 1942
He Volunteered in the summer of 1942, when they changed the law that allowed young men to volunteer as young as the age of 16 (by volunteering, he was able to get out of the Labor Service early)
He was not drafted.
He most likely enlisted using the name Sajer (which is a German last name)
He volunteered for the GD in April 1943 and was re-trained at the division's Feld-Ausbildungs Camp in Akhtyrka May 1943
He served in 5th Kompanie, Panzer Grenader Regiment GD from probably June 1943 until the end of the war (this was verified by Hans-Joachim Schaffmeister Berckholtz and Werner Both, who served in that company. They remember this Sajer as some kind of ethnic German). It may have or may not have been the same person.

I won't go into it beyond that. Suffice to say, if you agree with most of what is stated above, most of everything that he wrote about in his book flows in a logical manner. If you don't believe it, then nothing on earth will convince you one way or the other.

Sajer, of course, could completely dispel the controversy by going public and offering up his records or whatever he has as proof. John, a friend of mine who had developed the draft screenplay for the film and who had visited Sajer in his home numerous times, has seen photos laying about his apartment depicting him in German uniform. But I think, as I've said before, that Sajer enjoys the controversy in a perverse sort of way and probably won't divulge his evidence because he prefers the "man of mystery" appellation. So we may never know the true story.

Though I've written a lot about this topic, I can add that I still believe it's a genuine autobiography - not 100% accurate, but written to tell his own war story as seen and experienced by him, not by a military historian. There are no doubt embellishments and translation errors, but the core of the book I believe is real. You can accept it or not - but its hard not to enjoy the book as a literary work.

[knopfler]

hi guys
i started the same topic in another forum you ca check here
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... p?t=118176
and i cause a serios conflict as you can read.
is a good book about narrative, i had my doubts about the veracity, but if Rudy said it is not a a fraud (and he fought there, he is the autority about the subject)

[Spandau]

Well, good grief - it really does pay for someone to read all the previous posts on a topic - it sure would avoid having to do the whole argument all over again!

Ave Nash,

You are correct, the argument should have ceased after Rudi's post.

Vale,

-Spandau

[Christian]

He was born in Paris 13 January 1926 (not 1927 as has been stated on some websites - but the difference of one year makes a big difference to his story)

Doug,

While I agree with your overall comments, the piece of information above is far from indisputable unless of course you have evidence to support it.

Every website providing biographical information about Mouminoux suggests that he was born on 13.01.1927. While you claim that he was born on 13.01.1926, Mr. Mouminoux himself stated in an interview which I quoted on Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:57 pm, that he was 16 years old in 1940 when Alsace was annexed by the German Reich. This of course would mean that he was born on 13.01.1924.

Given these discrepancies you will certainly agree that one can't agree with your statement above, unless of course you have an official record confirming this fact. Just wanted to set the record straight.

Christian

[panzerschreck1]

5th kompanie panzerregiment GD, okay
but how does this explain the battle at konotop(september 43), Gd was not in the neighbourhood of konotop, the 183rd franco-allemagn division was stationed there, they haven't met any of them..
I also asked if any gd units defended Zoppot in 45, but there where no units of gd present. perhaps single soldiers..but at that late era of the war it is really hard to say.
After kursk gd was send to orel/briansk sector which does not comply with the book.

Perhaps mr sajer joined a franco-allemagn division like the 183rd, and fictated about the gd.

[panzerschreck1]

Here is an list of the entire gd armour strength at kursk:

I can't see a 5th kompanie anywhere? But mr Nash talked about an GD Feldersatz Battl. well that's not on this list.(maybe someone can show me the buildup of the supposed feldersatzbatt.?)
Besides sajer claims to have fought at belgorod during the belgorod counteroffensive (the counter to stem the russian mass Rumyantsev offensive) maybe they created a 5th kampanie after kursk but all in all it is still very unlikely sajer did participate...He has to come out of the closet or this will be unclarified indefinately!.

Panzer Reg’t GD

Reg’t HQ: 1 HQ Pz IIIM, 1 Recon Pz IIIM, 1 Recon Pz IIF
Tiger Coy: 3 Tiger I

2 Panzer Abts, each with:

Abt HQ: 1 HQ Pz IVG, 1 Pz III Flammpanzer, 1 Recon Pz IIIM
3 Companies, each: 2 Pz IVG or H


Panzer Grenadier Reg’t GD - Veteran

Regimental HQ: 1 HQ in Sdkfz 251/1
1 FLAK Company: 3 20mm (Self Propelled)
1 Infantry Gun Company: 1 150/11 IG & Tractor
1 PanzerJager Company: 1 Marder III, 2 PAK 40 & Trucks

1 Gepanzert Abt with:

Abt HQ: 1 HQ Platoon in Sdkfz 251/1
3 Infantry Companies each with: 3 Rifle Platoons in Sdkfz 251/1
1 Heavy Weapons Company with: 2 Sdkfz 251/9, 1 PAK 40 & Tractor

2 Motorised Abts each with:

Abt HQ: 1 HQ in Truck WELL IT MUST BE ONE OF THE 6 mot.abt. companies

3 Infantry Companies each with: 3 Rifle Platoons in Trucks
1 Machinegun Company: 2 HMG Platoons in Trucks, 1 81mm Mortar Platoon in Truck
1 Heavy Weapons Company: 1 75/12 IG & Truck, 1 PAK 40 & Truck, 1 Pionier Platoon (Rifles/Flame-throwers) in Trucks


Panzer-Fusilier Reg’t (mot) GD – Regular

Regimental HQ and assets as Grenadier Regiment

3 Motorised Abts

Organised as motorised Grenadiers


Sturmgeschütz Abt GD - Veteran

Abt HQ: 1 HQ StuG IIIG
3 Batteries each with: 2 StuG IIIG


Artillerie Reg’t GD

Regimental HQ: 1 HQ Platoon in Command Truck
2 Mixed Abt each with: 2 105/28mm Howitzers & Tractors, 1 150/20mm Howitzer & Tractor
1 Abt with: 2 150/30mm Howitzers & Tractors, 1 100mm Field Gun & Tractor
1 Abt with: 2 105/28mm Howitzers & Tractors, 1 Nerbelwerfer & Tractor


FLAK Abt GD - Regular

Abt HQ: 1 HQ in Truck
3 Heavy Batteries each with: 1 88/56mm & Tractor
2 Medium Batteries each with: 3 37mm FLAK (self propelled)
1 Light Battery with: 3 Quad 20mm FLAK (self propelled)


PanzerJager Abt GD - Regular

Abt HQ: 1 HQ Marder III
1 SP Company with: 3 Marder III
2 Towed Gun Companies each with: 3 PAK 40 & Trucks


Aufklärung Abt GD - Veteran

Abt Staff Company: 1 HQ Sdkfz 231 Armoured Car, 3 Sdkfz 222 Armoured Cars
2nd Company: 3 Rifle Platoons in Sdkfz 250/1
3rd Company: 3 Rifle Platoons in Volkswagen
4th Company: 3 (HMG) Volkswagen
Heavy Weapons Company: 1 75/12 IG & Truck, 1 PAK 40 & Truck, 1 Pionier Platoon (Rifles/Flame-throwers) in Trucks


Pionier Abt GD - Veteran

Abt HQ: 1 HQ in Truck
1 Armoured Assault Company: 3 Pionier Platoons (Rifles/Flame-throwers) in 251/1
3 Motorised Companies each with: 3 Pionier Platoons (Rifles/Flame-throwers) in Trucks
Bridging Column:
1 Large Bridge/Trailer, Pionier Platoon & Truck
1 Small Bridge, Pionier Platoon & Truck


Attached (at Kursk)

10th Panzer Brigade HQ

Theoretically controlled the Panther Reg’t and Panzer Reg’t GD – however, CO of Panzer Reg’t GD usually ignored Brigade HQ and operated independently – even issuing orders to the Panther Reg’t when the opportunity arose (interesting possibilities?)