"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer

Book discussion and reviews related to the German military.

Moderator: sniper1shot

Locked
panzerschreck1
Enthusiast
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:39 am

Post by panzerschreck1 »

However there is just one account on the forgotten soldier, that is in my eyes up to date to almost the exact minute.
Sajer describes that he takes part in the assault on Belgorod(kursk 5 july 1943) he is a member of an assault unit(group 8, companie 5 GD) at approximately 3:00 p.m. his unit starts off , infiltrating russsian lines and set up a machine gun post, as extra fire power when the main assault starts, when it does starts he describes an massive artillery barrage on the russian lines at Belgorod, which must had been around 4:00 p.m.
which is also described on this Kursk 1943 day by day account.

05/04:10 1 G Mass bombardment of Russian positions between Gertsovka and Belgorod; lasts 50 minutes

So atleast it seems that that is completely right, considering the report above.
User avatar
knopfler
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:35 am

Re: The forgotten soldier

Post by knopfler »

[quote="Rudi S."]Hello Annelie,
nice to know that you will read this book again with an open mind. So will I, as soon as I can get another copy of the book. I owned two of them - one was given to me by a Colonel of the office of the Dept. of Defense in which I was employed. He gave it to me with the remark that my story reminded him of the the one by Guy Sajer. I loaned it to someone and it was never returned. I bought another copy and the same thing happened with that one. I am now looking for another copy to read the story again.

Guy Sajer IS NOT A FRAUD!

BTW, if I would not have had a photograph of me showing that the "Großdeutschland" cuffband is on the right sleeve, I probably would have had to guess it. Furthermore, when you sew the band on the sleeve, that sleeve as seen by you would be on the left when putting the blouse on your lap (that could have been the reason why Guy erred).

MFG,
Rudi S.[/quote

Rudy, about the food suplies that sajer describes in his Book, is it true that they dont have enought food?, i red somewhere that the grossd, as an elite division didnt suffer the lack of food, as the others divisions
"The national arms have been covered with glory. The French troops behaved with value in the combat and its commander with stupidity" Ignacio Zaragoza,
john123
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:15 am

Konotop

Post by john123 »

For the person who said, "... just look at the claim of having fought at konotop..the 183rd I.D. fought there and there are no accounts of GD fighting in konotop."

Well this is the sort of sterilized view people have of this war. This was not a war that can be shoved into soup cans of neat and clean categories where everything is written about and accounted for. Just because it isn't documented doesn't mean it not true, and things are also not automatically true just because someone says it.

But in this case we are treated to some facts that do support the author of the book. The first two weeks of September 1943 saw GD split up to reinforce weak areas of the German front line, earning for itself the nickname "die Feuerwehr" (The Fire Brigade). By the end of the month, GD was required to retreat across the Dniepr, being one of the last German formations to do so. This means that not only is there a basis for the Sajer's claim, but it even adds a huge amount of weight to his account as being true - because this fact is not very well known.
User avatar
John W. Howard
Moderator
Posts: 2281
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:55 pm

Welcome

Post by John W. Howard »

Hello John:
I am almost 100% sure someone is going to ask you for a source for your information, so if you could share it, it would be nice!! Welcome to the forum, by the way!! Best wishes.
John W. Howard
panzerschreck1
Enthusiast
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:39 am

Post by panzerschreck1 »

John 123, i suppose you haven't read my other postings about the subject.
Check the topic soldatenheim "could a movie ever portray it".

I am doing some research on the books authenticity.
But anyway the book clearly says that prior to the fighting in Konotop
the GD sajers unit got refitted(a kampfgruppe was formed) after Bjelgorod/Kursk offensive.
And headed out in some form of an arch around Konotop, and then
facing the southern edge of the city while soviet forces were entering the city of K.

The GD made a huge assault towards the left flank of the soviet offensive
badly maulding the soviet reserve troops on the left wing of the offensive,
so the soviet forces witdrew from the city and focussed on the GD sajer'd kampfgruppe(BTW consisting of tiger tanks, i am aware that around august 43 the tiger tank batallion saw its first action with the GD).

After that engagement sajer describes that 3 companies led by the hauptmann Wesreidau( sajer does uses pseudonyms) were ordered to attack a village (sajer doesn't remember'the name and refers to city X)
Must however be in the immediate proximaty of Konotop.

After the fight the 3 companies head out for Konotop wich by now is involved in heavy streetfighting.On the way they meet a part of GD reconaissance abteilung who order them to advance to Konotop..

One thing that the book mentions is that at least those 3 companies were present at Konotop..
Sajer also describes that russian Katyusha rockets are fired at the GD division that is positioned behind Konotop. (that is the only account according to the book which states that the whole division is not stationed in Konotop but nearby).

During the fighting Sajer gets the flue and consequently is ordered to the first aid post to rest and recover..
After that he is dismissed from sick bay and finds out the city is totally surrounded by russian forces..
Outside he meets his company commander Wesreidau and he tells the troops(Wesreidau says according to Sajer:the whole division is surrounded! but sajer in fact hears that all defenders of Konotop are surrounded, also the forces of the 183rd I.D. c.o.general leutnant Lange )about the hopeless situation, and that there must be an all out attack to the west to break through the russ. encirclement, and that a strong infantry regiment will help them out on the other side of the russ. ring.

As all readers of the book know they did managed to escape.
But the 183rd lost a lot of men and equipment in the whole process.

This is all known about that era during the Rumyantsev counteroffensive
which was so devastating that 2 months later GD and heeresgruppe mitte were crossing the dniepr border a distance from Konotop to Kiev almost of 250 kilometers!!!

The book weg und schicksal 183 I.D. does not show GD division in Konotop, but the presence of sajer's 3 companies might be true, because it was a small unit and the defenders the 183rd might have overlooked such a small detachement of GD troops assisting in Konotop, but i can't figure that one out just yet!

However Sajer makes a claim that in a german wehrmacht report it was mentioned that GD forces took the town X nearby Konotop.
Sajer also mentions that the report says that the 8th and 13th companies were involved in capturing town X..

IF someone has read the actual report or can find it than that particulair episode of sajer's account is true..

And regarding the later accounts of the book it seems very likely that sajer was involved and gives accurate accounts of Memel, the fighting and preparing the defences of Zoppot, and the fighting in Brossel near Danzig and Zoppot..

This however is still being researched by me as we talk...
More info will follow for who is interested..

BTW Sajer makes a claim that in July, August 44 Leftenant Wollers and the remnants of sajer's company head out for the Rumanian, Ukraine border and meet a huge mass of retreating wehrmacht forces near the Karpathian mountains, well that is the same route the remnants of Korps Abteilung C. the 183rd ( here they are again), 217th and 339th I.D. had followed, after the break out of the Korps near ........

herausgelöst in der Nacht vom 18.-19.7.1944.
Div.-Gr. 183: südlich Ozydow
Div.-Gr. 217 mit Verzögerung Gawaraczyzna
Korpsabteilungsgefechtsstand, Füs.-Bat., Skijagdkommando Wald bei 372 (???), beherrschende Höhe mit weitem Blick nach S- und S-W

20.7. Auftrag mit Angriff beiderseits Bialy Kamien über den Bug.
7.25 Uhr wurde der Wald bei Belzec gegen geringen Feindwiderstand erreicht, danach starker Widerstand.
12.00 Uhr Brücke bei Poczapy erreicht.
13.00 Uhr Antritt Div.-Gr. 217 gegen Chilczyce
15.00 Uhr Poczapy erobert.
18.45 Uhr Funkspruch, dass 8. PD Woroniaki erreicht hat, 1. PD ostwärts Gologory.
Nachmittags auch sehr schwere russische Luftangriffe mit hohen Verlusten.
Bis zum 21.7.1944: ständig wachsender Feinddruck an der Ostseite und Nordseite des Kessels.
21.7. chaotische Führungsverhältnisse, z. T. keine Verbindung zu den Div.-Gr.
Spitzen der 8. PD wurden dort nachts aber wieder etwas zurückgenommen.
22.7. Korpsabteilung löst sich auf. Einzelne Gruppen brechen nach Süden aus. Versprengte Gruppen erreichen noch bis Mitte August deutsche Linien.
Neuer Versammlungsraum Wyzne.
Rgt.Gr. 311 blieb bis 28.7. geschlossen bei 1. PD.
Ausbruch gelang insgeamt etwa 5000 Mann, ohne Gerät, meistens nur mit Handfeuerwaffen.
Wolfgang Lange, Korpsabteilung C sowie Schnabel, Weg und Schicksal der 183. ID.

also that rings true but hard to really be sure it is!!!







Last edited by panzerschreck1 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
john123
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:15 am

Post by john123 »

Yes, it is always harder to prove something DID happen than to be the one to simply say it didn't (having the position that there is nothing to prove). Well, let me say that barring any evidence, each position is equally valid, and really useless.

I must ask at this point however, why it is automatically my responsibility to provide "sources" and not this other person who made the first claim? Shouldn't this other person who claims there were no units of the GD in Konotop give an account of where all of the units of the GD were at that time with source material; in other words prove that they were not there, but somewhere else?

The whole point is that it is a fundemental mistake to make any presumptions and that just because someone says something, it absolutley should not be regarded as truth just because it was said.

With regard to my source, there are actually many sources to show that the GD was all over the map putting in the first weeks of Sept/1943. You can even Google and find it. Here is one: http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/russia3.htm

In addition, in Sajer's book itself, he says that at this time he was split off into an "autonomous assault group" (he describes something brigade size) that was roaming the countryside fighting all kinds of battles. This is exactly what every historical account of GD at this time describes.
panzerschreck1
Enthusiast
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:39 am

Post by panzerschreck1 »

For christ's sake john 123 have you read my post at all???? :[] :!: :!: :?
john123
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:15 am

Post by john123 »

As a matter of fact I did not read your post, I must have posted mine right after you posted yours. :)

Thank you for the detailed account. In history it seems, everybody believes something happened a certain way until they are enlightened by some document or other evidence that says its time to re-write the history books.

Yes! This account Sajer gives of Konotop and Memel, and...each demonstrate individually that he must have been there.
User avatar
John W. Howard
Moderator
Posts: 2281
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:55 pm

Sources

Post by John W. Howard »

Hello John:
I did not mean to imply criticism, John. The Sajer debate has been hotly contested, so anyone who comes up with good facts which help the debate in either direction should help forum members with sourcing. This aids the member in making up his or her mind. Best wishes.
John W. Howard
User avatar
Christian
Patron
Posts: 1244
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:24 am

Post by Christian »

I did not mean to imply criticism, John. The Sajer debate has been hotly contested, so anyone who comes up with good facts which help the debate in either direction should help forum members with sourcing. This aids the member in making up his or her mind.


John,

Your earlier comment to cite sources is right on target. Not only should it be a requirement in the case of a book like this one which is surrounded by controversy, but for all historical statements.

Christian
panzerschreck1
Enthusiast
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:39 am

Post by panzerschreck1 »

The Sajer subject has been going on for quite a while now..
Has anybody ever came up with some good facts up till now?

Is the GD divisional history book a good one?
Did they track all GD kampfgruppes that were formed?
One thing that's for sure is that the GD records after novenber 44'are far from complete.

Does Sajer has pictures of him wearing GD uniform?
Where is the GD registration nr of Sajer?
Where are the records of the GD Ausbildungs bataljon (not in Akthyrka but the so called Camp F in Romny (or its vicinity))?.

Where is his POW account ? (American army, English army , French army)
If there's gonna be a movie, wouldn't it be nice to sort it all out, prior to the making of?

Or will it end up in history as a novel? (due to lausy research).
A miracle must happen if any hard, closing fact will show up....

Just don't count to much on those alledged sources cause there aren't any...
User avatar
Christian
Patron
Posts: 1244
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:24 am

Post by Christian »

Does Sajer has pictures of him wearing GD uniform?
Where is the GD registration nr of Sajer?
Where are the records of the GD Ausbildungs bataljon (not in Akthyrka but the so called Camp F in Romny (or its vicinity))?.

Where is his POW account ? (American army, English army , French army)
If there's gonna be a movie, wouldn't it be nice to sort it all out, prior to the making of?

Or will it end up in history as a novel? (due to lausy research).
A miracle must happen if any hard, closing fact will show up....

Just don't count to much on those alledged sources cause there aren't any...
Doug Nash made a good effort and contacted Sajer a few years ago but unfortunately I do not believe that he was able to secure any records, copies of official papers, pictures, etc. Ultimately Sajer is the only person who can really put this issue to rest and he has obviously no intention in doing so. Given all the great veteran accounts available today, I personally choose not to waste my time on an author who can't even come up with a clear cut answer about his date of birth.

Christian
panzerschreck1
Enthusiast
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:39 am

Post by panzerschreck1 »

I forgot to mention that the fighting in konotop was in the area of the
4th Panzerarmee:

Kriegsgliederung der 4.Panzerarmee: Stand 05.09.1943 (date of the batlle of Konotop according to sajer's account)

LII.AK 332.ID, 57.ID
XXXXVIII.PzK 19.PzD, 11.PzD, PzGrD "Großdeutschland", T.255.ID
VII.AK 88.ID, 75.ID, 208.ID, 68.ID
XIII.AK 183.ID, 340.ID, 82.ID, 327.ID
XXIV.PzK 112.ID, T.255.ID, 34.ID, 10.PzGrD

X111 AK was in the area of konotop, atleast the 183rd of 13th AK was in Konotop, good chance that GD (also part of 4th Pz.armee) did send some units to help the beleagerd garisson at Konotop..

There is more:

Panzerkorps Großdeutschland:

1. Einsatz und Unterstellung:

Aufgestellt am 28. September 1944 unter Verwendung der 18. Artillerie-Division und den Resten des XIII. Armeekorps. Die Aufstellung zog sich bis in den Januar 1945 hin.

1945

Datum Armee Heeresgruppe Ort
Februar 4. Panzerarmee Weichsel Oder, Neiße

There seems to be a big link around the GD and XIII Ak (183,340,82, 327 I.D.)
Laurent Daniel
Enthusiast
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:29 am
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

Post by Laurent Daniel »

Hi everybody,
Somehow proud to see that a French book can put a mess at Feldgrau for 2 years
@{
Some information:

1 - It seems that the English version you are talking about was poorly translated. A small exemple : A member here wrote that Sager don't even know what is a MG42 as he calls it a "FM".
FM, in French, means "Fusil-Mitrailleur", i.e. machine gun. The translator neglected to search and translate properly that acronym. Such gross mistake makes the whole translation doubtfull.

2 - The CDVFFE, the French "Cercle" of the descendants and next-of-kin of the French Volunteers, considers Guy Sager as honest and not frauding. As one of their aims is to prevent fraud and abuses of the saga of the Volunteers, I tend to trust them. Recently checking with them about another author that I was suspecting of being "inventing things", their clear cut reply confirming that yes, this guy is a "gugusse" (French slang for clown), strengthen, IMHO, their opinion about Guy Sajer.

That book generated in France the same sort of polemics that we have here. The author started by reacting and providing proofs and evidences and then, disgusted, took another stand, the one that consists in raising you right hand, in a fist fashion, but with the middle finger straight standing
:D
Regards
Daniel Laurent
panzerschreck1
Enthusiast
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:39 am

Post by panzerschreck1 »

Well i guess some researchers were not so polight with him,
thus ruining it all for later researchers with best intentions..

I can imagine he doesn't want anything to do with researchers that know better than him..

Thanks to some baboons we can forget about Sajer telling the whole truth or elaborating his motives at least :down: :roll:
Locked