The Forgotten Soldier Movie Update

[krichter33]

I agree with pzrmeyer2 that a movie like The Forgotten Soldier, as long as it was well produced, could be successful. Rather, movies of that kind aren't produced in the U.S. because portraying Germans from that era in a positive light is considered very politically incorrect. Some foreign films like Black Book, and The Pianist, however seem to be a little bit more fair, in the respect that at least they have one redeeming German solder in them. I get the feeling if The Pianist had been directed by an American director, the entire Hosenfeld character might have been "glossed over." Of course that's just cynical conjecture. Now, of course, you have Tom Cruise's Valkyrie, but that film received negative press from the beginning, mostly because of Cruise himself. Either way I still liked the film,and am surprised it actually was made. The main question I have is when did it become so taboo to portray German soldiers in a positive light? In "old" Hollywood you have many movies, some better than others, that portrayed German soldiers as human beings. Films such as The Desert Fox, The Enemy Below, Battle of Britain, The Young Lions, The Cross of Iron, ect... Well, actually some of those films I just mentioned are probably British, but as far as modern portrayals of German soldiers, they are in the same boat as Hollywood, lest I stand to be corrected. Anyways, sorry for the long post, I just have always been curious about this sea change, and what might have caused it.

[John W. Howard]

Hello Krichter:
I think the farther we get away from the knowledge of actual history, and replace it with victimization history or social history, and lose people who actually experienced the history of that time period, the more we get simplistic generalizations about historical events. There are thousands of people here in the States who know little or nothing about Germany or German history, but they do know about the extermination camps and that is what they think about when they hear about Germany. And very few have the subtlety of mind to recognize the moral dilemmas confronting Germans from all walks of life during the period of history we study. We have moved from a history of particulars to a history of very nebulous, simplistic, and generalized themes. Look at the course offerings in any US university's history department; there are very few "hard" history classes on offer, most are very "mushy". In short, there are thousands of excellent story-lines available about Germans during WWII, but the screenwriters either do not know about them or care. Best wishes.

[krichter33]

Very insightful answer John, I definitely have to agree.

[Frederick L Clemens]

Just to provide another side of the issue -

Again, as lifeling students of military history, we have a different level of interest and knowledge about this period that allows for subtle portrayals of the individuals involved in the conflict.

For the general public, with a low level of interest and knowledge, what could you expect but a simplistic portrayal?? And if there is a simplistic portrayal what would you believe to be more ethically true:
- German soldiers were just a bunch of honorable fellows caught up in someone else's war, OR
- German soldiers were one of the means by which an evil regime attempted to exert control over half of humanity with the goal of eliminating large portions of unwanted populations through direct extermination.

As sympathetic as I might be to an individual German soldier's experience, the fact remains that if the German soldiers had collectively been succesful, a murderous regime would have triumphed. That they fought against the soldier's of another murderous regime, the Soviet Union, does not alter that reality.

German soldiers themselves were not ignorant of the regime they served and the leader they swore personal allegiance to. Even if they weren't privy to or agreed with every detail of the regime's crimes, they knew they weren't living in a society with the freedoms and rights for all citizens that we take for granted. Many of their own relatives and acquaintances were victims as well.

So, given that movies are mass-market entertainment, and that many people get their history from them, the portrayal of German soldiers as bad guys is closer to the truth than showing them as good guys, is it not?

[lwd]

.... Rather, movies of that kind aren't produced in the U.S. because portraying Germans from that era in a positive light is considered very politically incorrect. ....

Letters from Iwo Jima would seem to indicate that that may not be correct. I haven't seen it but didn't Valkerie provide a postive view point on at least some Germans?

[pzrmeyer2]

John,

I completely concur with your post. Now, at risk of offending some of the more sensitve readers here, I do think the ethnic element cannot be overlooked. Despite a mellowing of attitudes towards prior antagonists, there are those who simply refuse to forgive, forget, or even rationalize the German experience in WW2. As I watched "Letters from Iwo Jima", the thought occurred to me that here was Hollywood portraying a cruel, merciless, enemy of the United States sympathetically. Dont forget, this was an enemy which bombed Pearl Harbor, lopped off the heads of millions of Chinamen, raped untold thousands of "comfort women",and conducted a savage war of unimaginable brutality. Yet they were the "good guys" here. But Japanese killings of Protestant Brits and GIs and other Asians is one thing. I cant imagine a Hollywood production of "Letters from Stalingrad", can you? instead we are treated to "Enemy at the Gates" folklore. Sure, there a few German soldiers as in "The Pianist" to assuage modern Germans' guilt complexes to show "there were a few good ones", but these are always contrarian types--never a loyal member of the Wehrmacht simply doing his duty.

I can think of many great sceenplays that will never get filmed...would not a movie on the Gustloff appeal to many western audiences? how about a biopic of Peiper, from Russia to Malmedy to Traves? what about a story on the civilian expulsions? All of these dramas could draw in the masses, if well produced. TFS is no exception. there are probably millions of action/war goers waiting for a more modern update to "Cross of Iron" like TFS. Look how many revere "Das Boot"....but given the nature of "who runs Hollywood" dont expect any to come soon to a theater near you.

[lwd]

Remember when you are talking about Hollywood the most important thing is money a close second is ego/image. So it's not so much the perception of or feeling for the Germans or Japanese by those in Hollywood as their perception of how their potential customers will react (ie their perceptions). In the case of Letters from Iwo Jima you had a Hollywood "Big Name" who was convinced the movie could do well and had an excelent marketing plan (releasing Flags of Our Fathers just before was a bit of a master stroke). People are also correct in that cheesie action sequences are no longer really acceptable in this kind of movie. Just like anything else in Hollywood all it would take is a dedicated and skilled proponent and such movies could be made although the threshold would be higher than for formula type movies. It is more likely to be made elsewhere however as it's both cheaper and in some cases subsidized.

[Frederick L Clemens]

Let's not blame "Jews" for the lack of exciting German war movies. If Jewish filmmakers have a bias against portraying Germans as the good guys, can you really say that is irrational or unfounded?

Reality check!

If you want to blame anyone for the way Germans are portrayed in the movies, start with Adolf!

It's true that money AND personal biases play a role in choosing which movies get made. Note the succession of America-bashing Iraq war films that were made and were money losers.

But you guys are getting hung up on Hollywood. Movies are not reality, they are entertainment. The fact that a given story is or is not made into a movie does not validate it and in most cases the screen portrayal takes it further from the truth not closer.

[Doug Nash]

Oy Gewalt!

[krichter33]

Letters from Iwo Jima got some negative views from some people who didn't appreciate the Japanese being portrayed the way they were, considering their own history of crimes during the war. Despite this, I think it was a brilliant film and one of the only reasons it was made was because of a Hollywood "bigshot," like Eastwood, getting behind it. Now imagine if Eastwood decided to do a similar film, but from the German perspective...

[centurion854]

PK, I googled "Dambusters but all I got was the IMHD web site. It had no cast info. All it said was it was in production and gave the directors name which I forgot. As far as Brad goes, like I said I don't like him so I pay little attention to him. I don't read celeb news even in legit papers or on the web. So although I do not know what suit you are talking about, and this is not a dis to you, if I never find out what it involves, I'm okay with that. In fact usually I find that when I get the nasty bits about "stars" or even pro athletes I find that it distracts from watching them because it's hard to watch someone play a noble character on screen or TV when you know they stalked their girlfriend and terrorized her for months or was a serious drug addict in real life. But then I don't like hearing crappy stuff about people I work with and none of them are famous. I guess I'm just funny that way.

[centurion854]

I saw Letters from Iwo Jima before I saw Flag of our Fathers. I liked them both. I think the atrocities committed by the Japanese were not as well known by the general public as what happened in Europe. As much as I hate to admit it, I think there is a bias against showing German soldiers in a positive light. Americans want a Saving Ryan/Inglorious Bastards portrayal. Of course in TFS there were some very fanatical characters. The MP's, Lensen and few others were willing to do whatever they were told for the fatherland, no matter what it was. It could be pulled off. Now that it's beenn cancelled, I'll bet we don't see it ever being revived.

[Lexxx]

With Peter Jackson involved in the new Dambusters movie, money is no object.

From the NYT:

The year is 1943, and as the Nazi war machine rises to the absolute height of its aggression, a hand-picked squadron of Royal Air Force pilots is selected to take part in one of the most daring, highly classified, and potentially deadly assignments in wartime history. As the training for "Operation Chastise" gets underway, a highly skilled collection of Allied aviators from Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the United States known as the 617 Squadron are trained for a top secret mission by Wing Commander Guy Gibson. With only seven weeks to prepare to execute a mission, the details of which were never fully revealed to the pilots, the race gets underway to strike a crippling blow against the Nazi steel industry. The mission won't be an easy one, though, because in order to accomplish their goal, the pilots will have to skim the tree tops in specially modified Lancaster aircraft as they fly deep into the heart of heavily fortified Germany in order to drop a revolutionary "bouncing" bomb designed to skim across the surface of the water and topple the dam with astonishing force. Developed by visionary scientist Barnes Wallis, these powerful new bombs must be dropped from a frighteningly low altitude and at a potentially deadly close range. Inspired by actual events and based on author Paul Brickhill's popular book The Dam Busters, Dambusters marks the directorial debut of longtime Peter Jackson collaborator Christian Rivers, and features special-effects work by Weta Digital, Ltd. and Weta Workshop, Ltd. ~ Jason Buchanan, All Movie Guide

[centurion854]

I'm not sure if it's true or not because I found it on wikipedia but "Dambusters" is already involved in controversy. According to wikipedia, the squadron mascot had a politically incorrect name which throughout history has been used to refer to black people. There was much nashing of teeth while great minds tried to figure out how to change the name without avoiding a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario. Finally since Commander Gibson used to refer to the dog as "Nigsy" they went with that. Talk about giving words too much power. What ever happened to "sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me?" Anyway as Lexxx said, the directors are Peter Jackson and Christian Rivers. Still can't find a cast list. Hey if "Dambusters" works out, we can convince Peter Jackson to do "TFS"

[bil]

I think the post by 'lwd' is about as close to describing how Hollywood works as any I have seen.As far as the canard about 'the jews' running the industry,the fact is that perception and money run the place,no matter the religion or race.If those two conditions were met,the type of movie we are talking about would be made.The amount of drek that is foisted upon the public just because it meets those conditions is proof.However,it would help things if the movie didn't require the audience to do much thinking.That concept has gone out of style. ---bil