Joachim Peiper by Jens Westemeier, A Review

[M.H.]

Bigott is only your try to drive the topic on Stauffenberg

Jan-Hendrik

Is it?

I just find it very interesting how a high ranking follower of Hitler is seen now (dare we say "white washed"?) compared to the witch hunt Peiper has to endure...isn't it?

[Jan-Hendrik]

Have you ever read a Stauffenberg-Bio by a serious researcher?

Jan-Hendrik

EDIT:

By the way: which "whitch hunt"? Is researching his career already a "witch hunt" for you? If yes, it reveals much on your point of view

[M.H.]

Have you ever read a Stauffenberg-Bio by a serious researcher?

Jan-Hendrik

What do you mean?

A bio where is denied that he from the start was a supporter of Hitler (he must have read MEIN KAMPF, right?)

Why such a generousity for Stauffenberg and no mercy for Peiper I ask...

[Jan-Hendrik]

I don't think I will be able to get your "point"

I just see you you try to drive away the discussion on a silly, childish level, but to my sorrow this sinking level can be seen on the whole forum this year

Jan-Hendrik

[M.H.]

I tried to constrain the same question in several, short sentences.
I'm sorry if you still are not able to grasp it or to answer it....

(But since I don't think you got brain-amputated over night I rather think
you are trying to avoid a clear answer! Your choice!)

[Michael Miller / ABR]

That is bigot!

Peiper KNEW but even his minimal involvment as an adjutant makes him a criminal but Stauffenberg KNEW too and him FIGHTING actively for the system as an officer in the field makes him somehow NOT a criminal...ah ja....

I have no idea what you're trying to say. How am I being bigoted? Bigoted against Peiper because he was a member of the SS? I can and would happily cite numerous instances where the guys wearing the eagle on their sleeves behaved with great chivalry, honor, decency whereas the guys wearing it above their right breast pocket were bloody butchers unworthy of the uniform.

Oh, and I have not referred to Adjutant Peiper as a criminal in this thread.

Being an officer in the field, braving the bullets and the bombs, and being grievously wounded in Tunisia-- no, I don't see that as criminal conduct.
Of course, Peiper was a bona fide war hero in his own right- one simply did not receive those decorations without being incredibly brave; but his duties on Himmler's staff, even if they weren't that significant in the grand scheme of things, were concerned with a criminal undertaking that had nothing to do with the courage he exhibited on the battlefield. Still, I really wish we had some in-depth data on what exactly he did as Himmler's adjutant. At this point, I can only speculate- I just know that he was THERE, with HH, while the Reichsfuehrer was directing his "war" in Russia.

[M.H.]

For me it is bigot if two people are judged differently even if they led comparable lives and did comparable deeds...
I'm sorry if I stepped on toes with that but that's how I see it and what is happening here.

[Michael Miller / ABR]

How are their deeds comparable?


~ Mike

[M.H.]

How are their deeds comparable?


~ Mike

How about being highly successfull career soldiers for the third Reich for starters?

[Michael Miller / ABR]

"How about being highly successfull career soldiers for the third Reich for starters?"


Indisputable. But there is one key difference. Von Stauffenburg was never an Adjutant to, and thus an important administrative functionary of, the Reichsfuehrer-SS und Chef der deutschen Polizei.

~ Mike

[M.H.]

...But there is one key difference. Von Stauffenburg was never an Adjutant to, and thus an important administrative functionary of, the Reichsfuehrer-SS und Chef der deutschen Polizei.
...

Agreed!

Another key difference:
Peiper never spoke out for Hitler against Hindenburg officially during the voting for the Reichs presidency 1932 thus helping enabling Adolf Hitler in the first place!

[Michael Miller / ABR]

Another key difference:
Peiper never spoke out for Hitler against Hindenburg officially during the voting for the Reichs presidency 1932 thus helping enabling Adolf Hitler in the first place!

It's quite a stretch to suggest that von Stauffenberg, who had no influence in 1932, could have "enabl[ed] Adolf Hitler". But even if he did- what of it? Who knew in 1932 what Hitler would do to Germany and Europe by 1945?

If he did commit these sins you apparently see as grave- supporting Hitler in the 1930's, fighting as a modestly-ranked staff officer of the Heer in World War II- didn't he maybe expiate himself of them by personally attempting to assassinate him?

~ Mike

[M.H.]

...
It's quite a stretch to suggest that von Stauffenberg, who had no influence in 1932, could have "enabl[ed] Adolf Hitler".
...

See?

That is what I wanted to point out all along...

Yes, Stauffenbers outspoken support of Adolf Hitler seeing as enabling him is a stretch...but it's also a stretch to concludefrom Peipers work as an adjutant to Himmler him being guilty of the Holocaust and war crimes too.
And where apologies for Stauffenberg concerning his questionable actions are abound there are none for Peiper....
That is what I call bigot!

(And I have absolutely no doubt that if Peiper would have been in Stauffenbergs situation some biographer would do exactly that - call him an enabler of Adolf Hitler!)

[phylo_roadking]

didn't he maybe expiate himself of them by personally attempting to assassinate him?

Mike - that's too simple and easy a get-out for Stauffenberg. Its why we have the saying "a falling-out among thieves" in the English language. His action wasn't just an anti-Hitler action, it was a pro-his and the plotters' own agenda action, not a simple black-white, right-wrong flip of the coin opposite.

[Michael Miller / ABR]

but it's also a stretch to concludefrom Peipers work as an adjutant to Himmler him being guilty of the Holocaust and war crimes too.

But I have not CONCLUDED that he was "guilty of the Holocaust" (although yes- he was convicted for later war crimes as Kdr. of Kampfgruppe Peiper). This discussion is not a war crimes trial. I simply think people should get the whole story on Peiper. Everybody knows of his wartime exploits and probably already has an opinion on the Malmedy matter- however, not everybody knows that he was right by Himmler's side when the RFSS was directing the mass murder of Russian Jewry, and when he visited Auschwitz-Birkenau during the first phase of mass exterminations there.

~ mIKE