THE TANK ACES.

Individual German officers, soldiers and award holders.

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MikeWindheuser
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Post by MikeWindheuser » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:30 pm

oops, sorry, I only meant the first bit to be a quote,

Mike.
Fire is the test of gold; adversity, of strong men.

homer martin
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Hi

Post by homer martin » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:26 am

I post this on the other tank aces topic on this forum a few years back about Otto.
Otto Carius kill total is not near the total posted here, with a little reseach his numbers want hold up to 150+

Kurt Knispel was a gunner and doesn't get credit for those kills which moves his kill total way down. As a gunner he should have gotten the Knights Cross.

I have posted this info on another server before with a detail acount of Otto and Kurt.

Here is my post from Third Reich Forum on this subject:

Tigers In Combat I is a great book, loved looking at the photos and reading the operational list of the units.

On page 100 of that book is where the 150 kill total comes from for Otto Carius and the 144 total for Bolter. This list isn't document.


Here is Otto's three major battles he fought in and the number of kills from each:
Newel
Nov 11 1943 Between Lowec and Newel, Otto knocks out 10 T-34s, two days later he kills 3 more T-34s.

Narwa
The operation log shows these kills by the command for March 17-22 1944
27 T-34s destoryed, 1 Kv-1, 2 T-60s and 6 more unknown.
It was for this battle Otto was awarded his Knights Cross
The newpaper covering this event said Otto had destoryed 28 tanks in this 3 day battle.

Dunaburg
July 22 1944
Otto, with as many as four Tigers attack a Russian command of 17 Js-IIs.
All 17 tanks are knock out, Otto having lead the attack and destoryed 10 of the 17 Js-II is awarded the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves.

At best that makes his total 51, his Narwa total is lower than 28 kills, there where other tanks with him in the main two fights he was in at that battle and the others also got credit for kills. Of the 36 kills by 502 in the battle, Otto wasn't in fights where 8 of the kills where claimed.

So going by the higher total of 51, that leaves 99 to acount for in minor actions. With a little reseach this 150 number will not hold up. When reseaching his totals the date he received the Knight Cross and the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves will be of great help, this date will give you his total of kills within 25.

On Kurts numbers, one doesn't count gunner kills as a tank commander, this would be like saying the man who shots the torpedeo that sinks a ship gets credit for the kill and not the commander who put them in place to get the kill.
Kurt is an outstanding gunner and tank commander and has set a fine record in his time in service.

Bolter received his Knights Cross on Apirl 7 1944 after his 89th kill(page 90 Tigers in Combat I), which was long over due. Most tank commanders received theirs after the 75th kill. He received his Knight Cross with Oak Leaves on Sept 10 1944. Bolter was wounded in August 1944 and was out of action till Jan. 1945. He would have had to knock out 55 tanks between then to get to 144 and only 49 to get to 138. His kill totals are better document than Otto's total. The dark area of his totals come when he comes back to the unit in 1945.


I hope this helps when looking into the kill totals.

/hgm


I found in the last 10 years a number of kill scores for some ace have moved up with no documentation and until I have seen it I would go with the kill scores from 1990 and before.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:57 am

Sorry , but Knispel was mentioned with 160 kills in the Wehrmachtsbericht ....

If You will not count any kills done as gunner , how much would rest for Wittmann ?


Jan-Hendrik

homer martin
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Hi

Post by homer martin » Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:37 am

Michael's total of 138-144 kills were all as a tank commander. There are a good number of books on him today and unit histories of LAH. 101st Panzer Battalion etc.

Also about tank fighting, its very hard to tell what tank kills what tank in combat, many actions with many of the tank aces listed here were fought with as many as 50+ tanks combined from both sides of the engagement and an after action report; would look like this for an action:
Egaged a large force of enemy tanks, destoryed 28.
and the daily log of combat strenght may show 8 tanks totaled, 3 under repair etc.

Who knows what tank killed what tank in that type action?

One action of a tank ace on the list was between 12 Tigers and near 40 T-34c, an 88L56 ap round (near 99mm with Apcbc, 138mm with APCR at 1000meters) will go though the T-34 front armor (70mm) at near 1000 meters, can one tell after the action what tank got what tank at those ranges? Also the 88 at 1000 meters has near a 100% chance to hit a target that isn't moving, if the Tiger is not moving.


Looking into tank ace history is much harder than looking into the history of the fighter pilots.

HGM

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Post by ericv » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:58 am

RADE, ?? * K's = 23 * > (StuG.Abt.244) <

Hauptmann Hans-Dietrich Rade received the German Cross in Gold 29-10-43 while being in the StugAbt 244

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:00 pm

"Panzerwaffe officer captured during first days of September 1939 was praising speed and nimbleness of a Polish tankette, claiming that: "...it is very hard to hit such a small cockroach from a gun"."

"Cockroach" versus Panzers:

Plutonowy podchorąży rez. Roman Edmund Orlik (71. armoured dyon of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade) was one of the first tank aces of WW II:

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In September of 1939 his tank was TKS tankette with automatic gun calibre 20mm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TKS

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His driver was kapral Bronisław Zakrzewski:

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- On 14th of September during the battle of Brochów he eliminated 3 tanks from Panzer-Regiment 36. from 4. Panzer-Division.

Map is showing the battle of Brochów (14th - 15th of September 1939). Map is showing situation around 20:00 on 14th of September 1939 - it comes from the album "Army Poznań 1939" by Piotr Bauer and Bogusław Polak:

"Offensive of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade on Brochów on 14th of September 1939 (situation at 20:00)":

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The battle of Brochów was fully won by the Poles.

- On 18th of September during the combat of Pociecha he eliminated 3 Pz-35(t) tanks from Panzer-Regiment 11. from 1. Leichte-Division. He also destroyed several motorized vehicles during that combat and took 2 prisoners of war (tank crew). He also tried to rescue the crew of one of those eliminated by him German Pz-35(t) tanks - which started to burn - but he - unfortunately - didn't manage to rescue them and all of them died.

These were tanks of platoon of Leutnant (or Oberleutnant ?) Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor, the whole platoon was eliminated during that combat (it had got only 3 tanks at this stage of the war) and Prinz Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor was heavily WIA and severely burned - and after a few minutes he died. He was born in 1916 and was first son of Victor III August and Elizabeth zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Öttingen-Spilberg:

http://www.gen.heinz-wember.de/hohenloh ... IA1879.htm

Orlik's victories (kills) during combat of Pociecha (1., 2. and 3.):

Image

- On 19th of September Orlik eliminated 7 German tanks (from Panzer-Abteilung 65. or from I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11.) during the battle of Sieraków. Most of those 7 tanks eliminated (most probably 6 of them) were Pz-35(t) tanks.

His tankette was one of 2 tankettes from 71. armoured dyon of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade (both of them were TKS tankettes with 20mm automatic guns) which broke through to Warsaw (during the night from 20th to 21st of September 1939). He was later fighting in Warsaw until 28th of September 1939.

Orlik's victories (kills) during the battle of Sieraków (1., 2., 3., [...], 7.):

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Total: 3 + 3 + 7 = 13 kills.

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:36 pm

If it comes to the battle of Sieraków itself:
- On 19th of September Orlik eliminated 7 German tanks (from Panzer-Abteilung 65. or from I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11.) during the battle of Sieraków. Most of those 7 tanks eliminated (most probably 6 of them) were Pz-35(t) tanks.
German sources say that during the failed German Panzer counterattack on Sieraków, Panzer-Abteilung 65. lost 26 KIA and WIA tank crewmen (including 4 officers, 5 NCOs and 17 soldiers).

The majority of tanks of Panzer-Abteilung 65. which took part in the attack (and most probably the whole Abteilung took part) were eliminated during that battle. Also Bade writes about this. According to Bade (and also according to German daily reports) the remaining German tanks escaped towards Hornówek and Lipków.

German tanks were attacking (according to Bade - but Polish sources confirm it) in two separated groups at the same time (it is possible - but not certain -, that apart from Panzer-Abteilung 65. also I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11. took part in that attack - or at least some part of it). Both groups were defeated and dispersed.

From the first group the Poles eliminated 27 tanks - 7 by Orlik, 20 by 7. light artillery dyon (direct fire) and 7. horse rifle regiment (the majority by regimental AT guns). During combats with this group the Poles (7. horse rifle regiment) lost 56 men - 14 KIA and 42 WIA.

From the second group the Poles eliminated 11 tanks - including 2 by direct fire of artillery platoon from 14. light artillery dyon (porucznik F. Orzeszko) and 3 by platoon of AT guns cal. 37mm of podporucznik Wiktor Ziemiński from 14. uhlan regiment (two of them were destroyed by Wiktor Ziemiński himself). The remaining 6 were eliminated by elements of 17. and 14. uhlan regiments and 9. horse rifle regiment.

Before the German counterattack, during the Polish attack on Sieraków (in the morning - the attack started , around 10:00 - so after less than 10 hours - Sieraków was captured), platoon from 15. light artillery regiment eliminated 2 tanks. Few tanks were also eliminated by 6. uhlan regiment - which was fighting north of Sieraków. And also in Sieraków (during the Polish attack) - apart from 34 German trucks (full of equipment and ammo), which were captured and later destroyed there, a few tanks were eliminated. While conquering Sieraków Polish forces also captured 9 machine guns.

Polish forces which took part in the battle of Sieraków - Laski (elements of Wielkopolska and Podolska Cavalry Brigades) were fighting both with tanks of Panzer-Abteilung 65. and tanks of I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11. during that day.

During the battle of Sieraków the Poles captured - according to the Polish sources - 70 POWs from II./KSR.4 and inflicted heavy casualties to it.

According to the German sources - both the German daily reports and relation of Bade - II./KSR.4 was dispersed and crushed during that day, and the remaining rests of it gathered on the road from Truskaw to Izabelin, where they established a hedgehog defence.

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:05 pm

By the way - do you know any German Panzer aces from the Polish campaign?

I have heard that during the Tank battle near Piotrków Trybunalski (5 IX) one of German Panzers (1. Panzer-Division) eliminated 7 Polish tanks and that during the same battle one of Polish 7TP tanks (2. light tank battalion) eliminated 5 German Panzers. But I don't know their surnames and don't have any more exact info on both figures. I will soon try to find some more info on it.

But I know that during the same battle, another Polish 7TP - commanded by plutonowy podchorąży Mieczyslaw Białkiewicz - knocked out 2 German tanks.

According to memories of Oberstleutnant Eberbach, on 12th of September Hauptmann Schnell (Panzer-Regiment 35.) - not alone, but together with his marching column - eliminated 7 Polish tanks.

I'm looking for confirmation of it in Polish sources - but maybe someone has got some more detailed info on it from German sources?

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:03 am

- On 18th of September during the combat of Pociecha he eliminated 3 tanks from Panzer-Regiment 11. from 1. Leichte-Division. He also destroyed several motorized vehicles during that combat and took 2 prisoners of war (tank crew). He also tried to rescue the crew of one of those eliminated by him German tanks - which started to burn - but he - unfortunately - didn't manage to rescue them and all of them died.

Among tanks eliminated by Orlik on 18th of September there was tank of Leutnant (or Oberleutnant ?) Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor - commander of a platoon. The whole his platoon was eliminated during that combat and Prinz Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor was heavily WIA and severely burned - and after a few minutes he died. He was born in 1916 and was first son of Victor III August and Elizabeth zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Öttingen-Spilberg:

http://www.gen.heinz-wember.de/hohenloh ... IA1879.htm

Orlik's victories (kills) during combat of Pociecha (1., 2. and 3.):

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And here some interesting pictures related to this event:

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The same Panzer IV B:

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After transporting it to some factory (I don't know the exact place):

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Here the same place - more wrecks can be seen:

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Wow... - he destroyed Panzer IV B with use of TKS with 20mm gun... - it is like destroying Panzer IV B with use of some poor version of Panzer II...

Previously I thought that Prinz von Ratibor was fighting in Pz-35(t)... - but it seems that I was wrong.

And - when looking more carefully - even in the picture above, when Orlik marked his tank victories during the combat near Pociecha - three tanks can be seen, including 2 smaller (Pz-35ts) and one larger - this larger one is probably Panzer IV of von Ratibor - and it is burning in the picture... Everything correct.

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:37 pm

One more photo of the same Panzer IV Ausf.B:

Image

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:04 am

Orlik's victories (kills) during combat of Pociecha (1., 2. and 3.):
By the way - this map was made by plutonowy podchorąży Roman Edmund Orlik himself, but most probably after the war - so at least several years later.

It is really impressive how damned exact it is, despite it was made so long after that event:

"gęsty młodnik" - subtitle which can be seen in Orlik's map - is exactly the same type of trees as can be seen in the photos of this destroyed Pz-IV ("gęsty młodnik" = "dense young forest").

A forest road which is marked in Orlik's map can also be clearly seen in all of these photos.

More over:

Image

Image

Image

In my opinion Orlik shot at least one long series or maybe even the whole magazine of his 20mm bullets towards this Panzer IV - probably from a very short distance (all of them hit in the same place, more or less).

It is obvious that after receiving at least several succesfull hits, ammunition inside this Panzer IV exploded. It also burnt out, as can be seen both in the photos and in the map made by Orlik himself - and as is also written in the subtitle below the first photo of this wreck which I posted in this thread.

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:31 pm

Most probably another photo of this Panzer IV Ausf B which belonged to Prinz von Ratibor and was destroyed by Roman Orlik near Pociecha (it appeared not a long time ago on Ebay.de and later - from ebay - on Polish forum odkrywca - it is also present on Historical Media internet site, I guess):

Image

And let's take a look once again on the map of that combat made by Roman Orlik himself:

Image

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Holtingar
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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Holtingar » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:16 am

You will find the most well known here, in these videos:

http://www.veltmaete.nl/netvlies2/ :up:

Nice version of the Panzerlied too.

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by Domen123 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:47 pm

Could someone write something about the procedure of confirming / rejecting claims of tank kills? How reliable are figures?

Tank kill = what exactly?

Confirmed tank hit (not necessarily disabled); tank disabled; tank with confirmed penetration of armour; tank with confirmed internal explosion or / and burnt out?

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Re: THE TANK ACES.

Post by HOS Bandit » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:51 pm

I don't know if this belongs in this thread or not but I thought it was related to the subject, and also pretty fascinating. In a packet of Propaganda Company Photographs I recently obtained was one picturing a Sturmgeschutz (AssaultGun) Battalion that had just celebrated it's 1000th enemy Tank destroyed in a 15 month deployment at the Eastern Front. I need some tips on how too post photos on this site, but in the meantime this photo and others I recently purchased can be viewed at WW2 in Color Website.
Za Dom Spremni

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