Gross Deutschland Panz. Div.

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Jeff, perhaps I could have laid it out a bit more carefully. Anyhow all is well now.

Regards,

Roger

[JeffF.]

Roger,
Were there any East Front panzer or panzergrenadier divisions in June 1944 that were recently reconditioned and at or nearly at full strength? 3rd or 5th SS Panzer Div.s perhaps? Jentz gives the strengths of units reinforcing the East Front but not much on the units in theater.
thanks,
Jeff

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Jeff,

Purely my own opinion, but this is my rating.

Weak - 3 and 24.

Weak to Medium - 8 and 3SS.

Medium - 7, 13, 14, 17, and 23.

Medium to Strong - 1, 14 and 16.

Strong - 5, 12 and 20.

Reforming in East - 5SS

Reforming in West - 6 and 19.

Roger

[JeffF.]

Thank you, you're informed opinion is very important to me.
thanks again,
Jeff

[JeffF.]

Roger,
Could I trouble you for a similar asessment by you of the Eastern Front's pz/pzgr div.s in DEC ' 1944? (at your convenience of course).
thank you,
Jeff

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Jeff,

PD's on Eastern Front were tidier and stronger. Adolf thanked Guderian for his efforts. This is how I rated PD's 1Jan45, which is purely a personal opinion. I don't have returns for PGD's except PGD HG2. Last return for 13PD was 1Dec44 when it was being rebuilt.

Strongish - 5, 7, 16, 17, 19, 20, 23, PGD GD, PD HG1, PGD HG2.

Medium to Strong - 3, 4, 6, 8, 14, 25, 3SS, 5SS

Medium - 1, 12, 24

Roger

[JeffF.]

Would I be correct in my assumption that your categories: "weak" meant somewhere between 25%-50% strength, Medium 50%-75%, and Strong 75% & more ?

[Roger Griffiths]

No, I just looked at the whole thing and made an assessment based on comparison with each other and their establishments, nothing scientific.

Roger

[donwhite]

Jeff,
A little while back I received a very detailed reply for the condition of the 5th & 7th Pz Div's in East Prussia on the 1st Jan'45 through this forum. I don't actually have the reply with me but from memory the 5th was rated a category 1 (The highest) and had approximatley 14500 men all ranks. It had over 100 tanks,StuGs & JPz's. The 7th was rated a Category 2 and had approximatley 13000 men all ranks. It only had roughly 80 Panzers but a refurbished Pz.Jag.Abt with 21 Jpz's joined it on the eve of the Soviet offensive (14-15th Jan'45). I'm not absolutely certain but I get the impression from various sources that each Division was teamed with a s.Pz.Abt. In this case it was the 505th (37xPz VIB) & 507th (53x Pz VIa) which would have enhanced each divisions armoured presence.If your interested I'll track down this reply and give you exact figures.

Cheers

[Roger Griffiths]

Yes, exact numbers for 1Jan45 were;-

5PD Establ 15,400 (92), Actual 15,331 (87)

7PD Establ 14,622 (105), Actual 14,053 (105)

5PD had Pz. Regt. 54 V, 37 IV and 8 Stugs. PzJgAbt 36 PzJg IV/70 and 10 Marder.

7PD had Pz. Regt. 39 V, 29 IV. PzJgAbt. had 14 Marder.

Don, if you're referring to Kampfwert, I is unlimited offensive capability and II unlimited defensive capability. You probably know that anyway.

Regards,

Roger

[JeffF.]

Don,
Thanks for the input. I appreciate it. I shouldn't need more than that.

Roger,
I'm curious, why would 5 & 7 Pz Div's have different establishments? Wouldn't they be authorized the same subordinate units with like units being on identical establishments (i.e pz reg in 5th same as pz reg in 7th)?

Jeff

[donwhite]

Thanks Roger. To be honest I'm always learning new things from this forum. I found the original post which detailed the strengths for the 1st Jan'45 and what it reveals (based on your post) is that the divisions in question were most likely refitting all the way upto the opening of the Soviet offensive as your figures for the 11th Jan'45 show incremental increases in AFV's and manpower. From the original post (By Kamen Nevenkin) the 5th had 14844 men, 33x Pz IV, 47x Pz V, 33x Jpz IV & IV/70, 6x StuG, 318x SPW/Pz SPwgn/arty Beobwgn, 9x sPak(sfl) & 15x sPak (mtz) & 49 Arty pieces. The 7th is listed as having 13853 men, 28x Pz IV, 37x Pz V, 269x SPW/ Pz SPwgn/Arty Beobwgn, 14x sPak(sfl), 12x sPak(mtz) & 37 Arty pieces. As noted 21x JPz IV arrive on the eve of the offensive. Comparing these equipment/personnel strengths whith what was available in 'the Bulge' makes interesting reading!

Cheers

[donwhite]

Sorry Roger, I'm barking up the wrong tree. Your Figures are for the 1st Jan'45 as well (I might need spectacles!). Depending on the source prehaps one shows total numbers available as opposed to vehicles ready for combat etc?

Cheers

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Jeff,

The establishments for personnel were always different, both between divisions and from one month to another generally. That for the PD44 was 408 Officers, 84 Officials, 3,146 NCO's, 9,583 Men, 706 Auxiliaries (Hiwi's) for a total of 13,927 plus 800 replacements for FEB. The only monthly zustandsbericht with the PD44 establishment I can think of was for Panzer Lehr about October/November 1944, and it should not have been. There's a host of reasons why establishments changed, missing or differently organized units. By 1Jan45 there had been wholesale revisions dated 1Nov44. Not that they were necessarily applied. In the Bulge, most of the SS PD's were still quoting 1Apr44 Panzer Grenadier and PzAA KStN's. as being applicable.


Hi Don,

Yes, the divisions were reinforced piecemeal up to 12th/13th Jan. 45. There were several months of relative calm which helped. The figures I gave for AFV's are from Kriegsgliederungen 1Jan45 which are normally, but not exclusively totals. The Meldung gave Establs., Runners and Short Term repair.

Kampwert III was limited defensive capability and IV Burnt Out.

Roger

[JeffF.]

Roger,

So when the panzer inspector general (or whomever was responsible) put out an establishment of "PD44 was 408 Officers, 84 Officials, 3,146 NCO's, 9,583 Men, 706 Auxiliaries (Hiwi's) for a total of 13,927 plus 800 replacements for FEB," the subordinate HQs (Field Armies, Panzer Corps, Panzer Division) would have authority on whether or not it was implemented or perhaps WHEN it should be implemented? Is that an example of one reason why each panzer division would have a different establishment?

Jeff