Schutzen Brigade, 1939

[Miguel]

Hi,
I'm trying to understand the composition of a german panzer division at the start of the polish invasion. Considering the Schutzen Brigade of the 1. PD, Niehorster Vol. 1/I of the German WWII Organizational Series has it with a strenght of 3183 men. I also have the Schutzen Regiment with 2203 men. However, when I try to analyse the manpower of the several units that constitute the brigade and the regiment I cannot add to those values. From my analysis I have the following manpower per unit:

Brigade Headquarters (KStN 54 1.10.1937): 37
Regiment Headquarters (KStN 1104 1.10.1937): 16
Signals Platoon (KStN 1197 1.10.1937): 29
leichte Kolonne, mot. (KStN 202 1.10.1937): 47

I. Battalion: (total=973)
Battalion Headquarters (inc. trains) (KStN 1108, 1.10.1937): 76
2xRifle Companies, mot. (KStN 1114, 1.10.1937): 2x183=366
1xMotorcycle Rifle Company (KStN 1111, 1.10.1937): 175
1xMG Company, mot. (KStN 1116, 1.10.1937): 208
1×Heavy Company, mot. (KStN 1121/1122/1123/1124, 1.10.1937): 148

II. Battalion: (total=973)
(as I. Battalion)

Kradschutzen Battalion: (total=998)
Battalion Headquarters (KStN 1109, 1.10.1937): 78
3xMotorcycle Rifle Companies (KStN 1111, 1.10.1937): 3x175=525
1xG Company, mot. (KStN 1118, 1.10.1937): 200
1xHeavy Company, mot. (KStN 1121/1122/1123/1124, 1.10.1937): 148
leichte Kolonne, mot. (KStN 202 1.10.1937): 47

This adds up to 1991 men for the regiment and 3073 men for the brigade. Thus, I'm missing 212 men for the regiment and 110 men for the brigade. I understand that lots of these early war KStN are missing and so we have lots of gesswork (WAG) in these values, but when I look at the numbers and find that I'm missing 100-200 men I feel that I might be overlooking something. Any help is appreciated.
My main sources, apart from Niehorster fantastic work is Osprey Battle Orders 32 and several websites like bayoneth strenght and sturmpanzer (and feldgrau, of course)

Cheers,
Miguel

[hero.]

Hello Miguel !

Nice work and interesting question !

I am also interested in the early war KStN (mostly infantry so far). It seems, that a lot of them
are lost or at least very hard to find. But I was especially astonished that it is so hard,
to find a breakdown in numbers for the different parts of the famous 1. Pz.Div !

The best help I can offer you at the moment, are some numbers from a book
by F.M. Senger und Etterlin, Die Panzergrenadiere :

The author gives the following numbers for the 1.-3. Pz.Div. at the time of mobilization:

________________________Offz.__Officials___Uffz.___Enl.Men____total
Stab Schützen-Brig.__(1x)____3______0________3_______15_______21
Stab Schützen-Rgt.__(1x)____8______2________26______125______161
Schützen-Bataillon___(2x)___25______3_______152______841_____1021
Krad-Schützen-Btl.___(1x)___26______3_______138______792______959

Summing it up, (with the correct Gliederung) this yields the following totals :
Schützen-Regiment________58______8_______330______1807_____2203
Schützen-Brigade__________87_____11_______471______2614_____3183


How can the differences to your calculation be explained ?

1.) The Kradschützen-Btl. :
According to the Kradsch.-Btl., I agree with the KStN you gave.
(except the question of an additional le. Kolonne, s.b. !)
KStN 1109, 1111, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124 (all of 1.10.1937) can be found on wwiidaybyday :
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnpanzermain.htm

_________________________Offz._Officials____Uffz.__Enl.Men___total
Stab____(KStN 1109)_(1x)____6______3________15_______54_______78
Kradsch.Kp.__(1111)_(3x)____4______0________23______148______175

schwere Kp.:
T.E.Führer___(1121)_(1x)____1______0_________7_______20_______28
T.E.PzAbw.zg_(1122)_(1x)____1______0_________5_______24_______30
TE.PzTr.G.zg_(1123)_(1x)____1______0_________5_______27_______33
TE.PzTr.Pi.zg(1124)__(1x)____1______0_________5_______51_______57
-----------------------------------------------------------------
schwere Kp.__(total)_(1x)_:___4______0________22______122______148


Then, one can subtract all those from the above total for a Kradsch.-Btl. and the remaining rest is an
estimate for KStN 1118 : 4/-/32/172 = 208 ( + 8 to your sum of 200)

Doing the same calculations for the vehicles, a Krad.MG.-Kp. (KStN 1118) should have approximately
6 Krad / 38 Bw.Krad / 10 cars / 15 trucks ( and ~ 143 Rifles / 65 Pistols / 8 heavy MG / 6 heavy Grenade-Throwers)
(for the weapons, I dont have a total, so this is very unsecure).

This assumes however, that there is no leichte Kol. associated with the Kradschützen-Btl.,
despite it is listed on the Gliederungs-Table on Dr. Niehorsters website.
Mueller-Hillebrand, Das Heer, and Veit Scherzer, Dt. Truppen im 2. WK, Bd. 2, do not list a
le. Kolonne within the Kradsch.-Btl. So maybe one should at least consider that possibility ?!


2.) According to the Gliederung of a Schützen-Btl., I also agree with the KStN you gave.
KStN 1108, 1111, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124 (all of 1.10.1937) can be found on wwiidaybyday :
KStN 1114, 1116 (1.10.1937) are still unknown to me.
However, one can try to construct them (at least the numbers of men) by subtracting the
known numbers from the total of the Schützen-Btl. :

Sch.Btl.__:__25/3/152/841

KStN 1108 :___5/3/15/_53
KStN 1111 :___4/-/23/148
Heavy Comp.:__4/-/22/122
-------------------------
Sum_______:__13/3/60/323

Rest______:__12/-/92/518

This results in a sum of 12/-/92/518 for the two Rifle-companies and the MG-company.
Which could (tentatively) be deconvolved to e.g :
4/-/30/178 = 212 ( + 37 to your sum of 175) for each of the two rifle companies (KStN 1114) and
4/-/32/162 = 198 ( - 10 to your sum of 208) for the MG - company (KStN 1116).

Of course this is pure guesswork, but the numbers don't look totally unrealistic to me.


3.) According to Senger-Etterlin the Stab of a Schützen-regiment has a composition of :
=> 8/2/26/125 = 161

This total should contain the regimental Headquarters, a signal platoon, and the leichte Kolonne,
all with the KStN Nrs. you already supplied.

For the signal platoon (KStN 1197) I have found a composition of 1/-/7/29 = 37
in a book by K.C. Richter on Panzergerenadiere.

For the leichte Kolonne (mot) (KStN 202) I have found a suggestion of 1/-/6/40 = 47
in a post by Andrew Philpotts a long time ago, which would fit your total of 47.
(In the book by Richter it is mentioned, that this le. Kolonne (mot) had 18 trucks, but no further details.)

This would give a suspected composition for the regimental headquarters section
KStN 1104 : 6/2/13/56 = 77

In comparison a regular Inf.Rgt. had a HQ-section (1.10.1937) with
KStN 101 (R) : 7/1/5/32 = 45

So, 1104 might be a bit "large", but at the moment I have no idea, whether there could be an
additional, unknown kind of unit (and what type ?) included within these numbers.
(A typical case to explain a lot of "excess" Uffz. and E.M. could be an "unrecognized Musik-Korps",
but I don't think that "solution" could be applied here. Could it be a Kradmelde-Zug ?!).

I hope this gives you at least some useful numbers and infos for further discussion.
Maybe someone, with a more detailed knowledge on KStN, could comment or correct the statements above .

Best regards,

hero.

[Leo Niehorster]

Here is a table of 1939 Panzer Divisions authorized personnel and vehicle strengths i.a.w. the 1939 mobilization plan.

I too have tried to reconstruct the various missing KStN from contemporary documents (training manuals, strength reports, etc.), but, unfortunately, there are few, and many do not agree. Strength reports are, of course, only an indication of what a unit had, not what it was supposed to have, even at the very beginning of the war, where one would suppose all units were filled up to T/O strength. Well, as I have, you will discover that some were, and some weren't. Some were even over strength. And training manuals are frequently based on outdated details of the units' real strengths.

The Infantrie-Kolonne (mot) [KStN 202] could well have been missing from the motorcycle battalion. In fact, both Mueller-Hillebrand and Keilig do not show them.

Hope I have added to the confusion.

Cheers
Leo

[Leo Niehorster]

I have checked some organizational diagrams, and the motorcycle battalions of the 1. – 3. PzDivs did NOT have infantry columns. Diagrams on the web site have been duly corrected.

(Probably a more correct designation in English for these columns is "regimental ammunition supply columns".)

It's great that this sort of thing comes up in this forum. Appreciate it.
And thanks to Bill Russ for assisting.
Leo

[hero.]

Hello Dr. Niehorster !

Please let me first take the chance to thank you for your ever present willingness to share informations,
either here in the forums or on your excellent website ! From both, I have learned and profited a lot.
And I can only imagine how much work you already have put into that !
So, THAT is really appreciated !!


>> Hope I have added to the confusion. <<
As you have done so much work on KStN, from your first reply I did sense some undertone, which immediately
reminded me of the famous saying :
"Die ihr hier eintretet, lasst alle Hoffnung fahren !"

Which, in this context here, might be translated to :
"You, who enter here [the realm of KStN], abandon all hope [to ever find the truth you are looking for] !"

But your second post gives me back some kind of optimism, that the situation isn't so totally desperate.
At least it encourages me, to dig out some other unsolved questions in the near future, and maybe,
at least a few of them can be solved, too.

So again, thanks for the informations, the data on 1. - 5. Pz.Div and the little moral boost !


With optimistic greetings,

hero.

[Miguel]

Hi Hero and Dr Niehorster,
Thanks a lot for your replies. Only now did I realized that there were these extremely useful comments to my post. I'll read them carefully (lots of thing to digest!) and comment later.

Cheers,
Miguel

[Domen123]

What was the number of weapons (pistols, rifles, LMG, HMG, 5cm and 8cm mortars, le.IG and s.IG, Pak, SMG if any) in Schtz.Rgt. of individual Pz.Div. (1. - 3., 4., 5.) and in Kav.Schtz.Rgt. of individual Lei.Div. (1., 3. and 2., 4.)?