"Panther" in "Zitadelle"

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LB
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"Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by LB »

Hello Feldgrauians !

I'm doing current researches about Panzer Brigade 10 and the "Panther" tanks during "Zitadelle".

AFAIK, this brigade was formed with a regimental staff (Panzer Regiment 10 from 8. Panzer Division) to command first the Panzer Regiment "von Lauchert" (from Panzer Regiment 39 staff and the two "Panther" battalions, Panzer Abteilungen 51 and 52) and then the Panzer Regiment "Grossdeutschland".

At this time, I hope I am correct.

My question is linked with the amount of "Panther" during "Zitadelle". If I am pretty sure that there were nearly 200 "Panther", maybe more, with the Panzer Regiment "von Lauchert", I don't know whether there were any of these tanks in Panzer Regiment "Grossdeutschland".

Actually, I'm looking for the exact figures of "Panther" involved in "Zitadelle".

Thank you.
Best regards,

LB
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Post by Reb »

LB

roughly 200 is the figure I've got. The Brigade was attached to GD but contrary to most published works I've read there were apparently no panthers directly attached to GD Pz Regt nor to any other unit.

A search on Kursk or Prokorovka on this site will turn up huge amounts of info on the specifics!

cheers
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Post by LB »

Thank you Reb. I didn't find an accurate figure in the forum archives concerning the number of "Panther" in "Zitadelle", excluding those of the Panzer Regiment "von Lauchert" (96 per battalion, with the 8 command tanks, that means at least 200). That's why I prefered to ask :D

Anyway, it is very likeable that there were no other "Panther" involved than those of the Panzer Regiment "von Lauchert". Nevertheless, 240 is a figure frequently quoted, and I'd like to know where were the 40 missing "Panther" :[]

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Post by Jerry »

PzAbt 51 & 52 each had been assigned 96 PzKw V "Panther", none were assigned directly to PzRgt GD. Each Abt had 2 command Panthers and the Rgt stab had 8 for a grand total of 204 Panthers. These are the only Panthers that took part in Zitadelle.

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Last edited by Jerry on Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Epaminondas »

Jentz's panzertruppen and Panther books have quite a bit of info on this.

Tragically, personality conflicts between GD officers and the panther unit were largely responsible for the mishandling of the unit during Kursk.

GD's unit history, and the GD panzer regiment's unit history have a bit on this as well.
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Post by LB »

Thanks for your help !
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; sorry for coming back again on the subject but ....................

Panther (Abteilungen) Detachments' level of experience and training.

Historically it was told that the Panther detachments had serious shortcomings in training and experience in combat, but in seeing the origins we have..........

The Pz Abt 51 was created on January 9, 1943 from the II./ PR 33 (9 Pz Div). This division took part in Operation "Blau" from June to August 1942 and then was transferred via Orel to Bolchoff to take part in Operation "Wirbelwind", the offensive to Ssuchinitschi. From September 1942 onwards fought within the 9.AOK's framework in the region of Gshatsk. The first commander was Hauptmann Heinrich Meyer (I think it was also of the II./ PR 33).

The Pz Abt 52 was created on February 9, 1943 from the I./ PR 15 (11 Pz Div). This division took part in Operation "Blau" with the 2. AOK and fought in the upper Don in the area of Woronesh. From September 1942 onwards it was engaged in intense defensive struggles in the Woronesh - Liwny area. Its first commander was Maj. Karl von Sivers (from the II./ PR 24, which escaped from Stalingrad).

As we see the original crews were not rookies and the previous year had taken part in the major campaigns (offensive and defensive) carried out by the Ostheer. However we should see the percentage of veteran crew, so for example in mid-April 1943 the Pz Abt 51 had 1,179 men (how many of them veterans? and how many replacements?). I haven't any data about the Pz Abt 52.

Training.

As for the training we can say that because of the numerous mechanical problems detected, mainly motor overheating, fuel leaks, failures in the transmission and final drives, all Pz Kw V "Panther" were returned to the factory between April and May 1943; due to that reason the training did not exceed the Platoon level in the new units.

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... en/9PD.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... n/11PD.htm

Does anyone have information about it? Cheers. Raul M 8).
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

Transfer to HGR. Süd to Kharkov.

On June 18, 1943 the OKH / GenStdH / Op.Abt. ordered the transfer of the Pz.Abt. 51 (former - II./ PR 33) from Grafenwöhr to the area of ​​Army Group South to Kharkov from 22 June 1943 onwards. The detachment formed part together with the Pz.Abt. 52 of Pz.Rgt.Stb. 39.

Meanwhile on June 24, 1943 the OKH / GenStdH / Op.Abt. also ordered the transfer of Pz.Abt. 52 (former - I./ PR 15) from Grafenwöhr the area of ​​Army Group South to Kharkov from June 27, 1943 onwards.

Between 24/25 June 1943 the Pz. Abt. 51 received 96 Pz Kw V Panther Ausf. D (modified). It also received 2 Panther without turret as recovery vehicles (Berge-Schlepper).

On 25 June 1943 the Pz. Abt. 51 was shipped in Grafenwöhr and then transported by rail to the eastern front in the region of Bogoduchow west of Kharkov.

Between 28/29 June 1943 the Pz. Abt. 52 received 96 Pz Kw V Panther Ausf. D (modified). It also received 2 Panther without turret as recovery vehicles (Berge-Schlepper). The first trains transport departed on June 28, 1943 to the eastern front.

From 28 June to 3 July 1943 rail transport of Pz. Abt. 52 via Krakow -Smerinka - Kiev to Odnoborowka east of Poltava. From the unloading station in Odnoborowka carried out a land march of 35km to Novo Borrisowka.

On 1 July 1943 the Pz. Abt. 51 carried out a march from Borisowka to take its readiness area in Tomarowka.

The Pz.Abt. 51 (96 + 2 Panther) and Pz.Abt. 52 (96 + 2 Panther) were subordinated to the Staff of PR 39 (8 Panther) to form the Pz.Rgt. (Panther) Lauchert, by the name of its commander Maj. Meinrad von Lauchert. The regiment had a total of 200 tanks Panther, 4 Panther turretless as recovery vehicles, 2 le. SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1) and 4 Mittleren Krankenpanzerwagen (Sd.Kfz. 251/8). During the great German offensive in the area of ​​Kursk, the regiment would be attached to the Pz.Gren.Div. Großdeutschland [XLVIII. AK, 4th Panzer Army, Army Group South].

Then a total of 200 combat Pz Kw V reached the area of ​​operations (plus 4 recovery) but here other problems are added because according to sources in the land marches before mentioned were burned by leaking fuel 2, 4 or 6 Panthers (according to sources) with which the number of tanks in service would be reduced to 198, 196 or 194 ...... but even more according to a combat report another 20 Pz Kw V would have been out of service due to mechanical problems, therefore the number would dropped to 178, 176 or 174 at the start of the offensive ................

Added to this the Pz. Abt. 52 lost its first commander due illness and hastily took command an officer of the Armored School of Putlos, Maj. Teepe (who was a teacher but -it seems- with little combat experience ...................)

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00003.html
Steel Masters 063 - Le Panzer-Abteilung 51 à Koursk" Jean Restayn.
http://warspot.ru/3055-debyut-panter
http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/2 ... B6ppel.pdf

We see that to the problems of experience and training were adding other (which of course strengthened each other !!). By the way something about number of veterans and rookies? Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Pz Kw V Ausf. D "Panther" ready to be transported to the front, previously were modified by Demag in Falkensee ................................
Pz Kw V Ausf. D "Panther" ready to be transported to the front, previously were modified by Demag in Falkensee ................................
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

In the assembly area prior to the attack. (4 July 1943).

On July 01, 1943 the PR 39 marched by Borisowka to its assembly area located northwest of Tomarovka on the Vorskla. The two armored regiments, PR v. Lauchert and PR GD would be subordinate to the 10th Pz.Brig.

On July 4, 1943 in the evening came the last train transport elements of Pz Abt 52 to Odnoborowka.

Combat Reconnaissance. (Gefechtsaufklarung)

a. General.

Combat Recce generally starts when opposing forces begin to deploy. All troops involved in the battle reconnaissance carried out by patrols, artillery observation posts, observation battalions and air reconnaissance units. The information obtained about the organization and the enemy's strength provides the basis for the development of the battle.

Well the above failed miserably and as the Panther detachments arrived at sector virtually on the eve of the offensive, this task fell mainly on the division.

Something on the offensive.

Many of the attacks fail miserably in the initial phase because decisive mistakes were committed. These may include:

• Incorrect choice of the ground (and opportunity)
• Inadequate knowledge of the enemy situation
• ineffective or inadequate coordination and support elements
• Incorrect use of the forces.

I think in this action they successfully met all errors (shared responsibility between the Army Corps, division and regiment / brigade)

Previous situation: From the starting position of the Fourth Panzer Army, Soviet artillery positions and their defense system could not be seen. There was only one solution ........ The army launched a limited-objective attack on the afternoon of July 4, before the opening of the main offensive, in order to seize the commanding heights of Syhino (south west Butovo).
Despite successfully conquer the starting position for the attack ..... The weather improved enough that night (4/5 July 1943), but the roads were mud and Soviet artillery remained very active. In short, the main elements of XLVIII Panzer Corps took their assembly areas on time. However the 10th Armoured Brigade (Oberst Decker), suddenly found extreme difficulties with the marshland (Ground Recce when?? and within a sector under German control by now).

Now, regarding the creation of a brigade HQ whose mission was to control 300 tanks of the division "Grossdeutschland".
It was nothing new or unknown to the Germans and was the norm until the end of the campaign in France in 1940 (these brigades also controlled about 300 tanks) ...

Regarding it was a mistake to concentrate so many tanks on a narrow strip of land (3 km), well there is nothing unusual nor is it a tactical error since there is a form of attack in column (regiment, battalion or companies); This type of attack is used when looking to maintain the momentum of the attack at one point and the worn down units are relieved surpassing them, therefore maintaining the momentum of the offensive ...............

Finally, another big problem: As detectors of magnetic mines were not effective, engineers used probes to locate mines and lifted them by hand. On the night of July 4/5 German the divisions planned for the attack had detachments of engineers opening lanes through the Soviet minefields. This was a slow and dangerous work, and could not always be completed before the attack ........................

The night of July 3 fell in the area between the Donets and Desna. The 2nd Company of Pi Btl Division "Greater Germany" had sent a demining group of ten men. This group of ten men raised mines 2,700 facing the hills of Butovo during the night of July 3/4. Two thousand seven hundred mines in five hours of total darkness.

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
Panzer Tactics - German Small-Units Armor Tactics in WWII.
U.S. War Department "Handbook on German Military Forces" (Mar'45) TM-E 30-451
Kursk - The German View
Countermine MINE AND OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK. Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson.
Scorched Earth-Hitler's War on Russia. Vol.2.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/me ... Kursk+1943

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Assembly Area of PR 39 and limited-objective attack.............................
Assembly Area of PR 39 and limited-objective attack.............................
image010.jpg (57.77 KiB) Viewed 5940 times
Assembly Area of Pz Abt 51...................................
Assembly Area of Pz Abt 51...................................
image011.jpg (23.23 KiB) Viewed 5940 times
Assembly Area of Pz Abt 52 (in the center background a Pz Kw VI Tiger of PR GD) .......................................
Assembly Area of Pz Abt 52 (in the center background a Pz Kw VI Tiger of PR GD) .......................................
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

The course of the battle - July 05, 1943. Previous comments.

The terrain on which the attack would take place was a vast plain, broken by numerous valleys, small woods, irregularly scattered villages and crossed by several rivers and brooks. Among these, the Pena river ran with a fast flowing between steep ravines. The ground rose slightly north favoring the defender. Extensive cornfields covered landscape making difficult the observation in the area. The sandy paths became impassable by the rains. In short it was not a favorable terrain for tanks, but in no way it was a tank-proof terrain..................

The concept of the operation used was different from Model (in the north) as in south the armored formations would led the attack from the outset. The Germans attacked in armored wedge with a tank battalion deployed in a front of 1200 meters and two companies in front (if possible one of Pz Kw VI Tiger)..................

Mechanized Forces' Attack: Germans put emphasis on the need to concentrate the tanks effort in the decisive points. The armored regiment usually attacked in waves, with the unit echeloned in depth, one battalion after the other. When the regiment attacked with two battalions in front, it was essential that another regiment formed the second wave.

At 06:00 hours and after two hours of artillery fire the XXXXVIII Pz Korps went on the attack ..... Because the VIII Air Corps was primarily support the II SS Panzer Korps, the XXXXVIII Pz Korps had a limited air support. The Panzer Corps advance suffered significant delays due to the struggle not only against the Russians but also against formidable terrain obstacles..............

Obstacles in the sector: antitank ditch and ravine east of Beresowyj, with deep minefields and barbed wire obstacles in front of the ravine. The gully and ditch are also filled with water. Minefields N of Point 229.8. Road leading to the NE of Butowo mined. Two anti-tank ditches southeast of Luchanino.

The PR v. Lauchert advanced as second wave behind the PR GD against Moschtschenoje located due north. Meanwhile Grenadiers also left their trenches, but the expected support of tanks never came.............. The failure occurred in the first attack in Butovo on July 05, was not due technical problems of any new weapon. The reason was much more mundane as the Panther tanks of von Lauchert could not overcome a stream running south and southeast of Butovo, which could not be avoided; the mud on the bed of the stream was indescribable, plus one undiscovered minefield in front of Soviet lines and many tanks lost their tracks being easy prey to the Soviet defensive fire...................

Tactic: mined obstacles are often registered only after the tank has entered it. In that case, it is important to prevent other tanks doing the same. If the enemy anti-tank defenses came into action at the same time, the fire must be returned immediately and, if available, the vehicles should lay down a smokescreen. If it is not possible to avoid the obstacle, engineers must clear lanes while other tanks provide support from covered positions ..............

Well here's another aspect, due to a technical failure (smoke launchers were activated after getting fire on it) were removed from the first models of Panther........

Another factor highlighted as critical, if the main effort was with the XXXXVIII Pz Korps (I say this as that Corps was assigned the new Panther Regiment) why did not get priority in close air support?

And knowing the difficult terrain and obstacles and the heavy rains in the sector, what happened with the support of engineers? (This aspect was not reinforced).

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
Panzer Tactics - German Small-Units Armor Tactics in WWII.
U.S. War Department "Handbook on German Military Forces" (Mar'45) TM-E 30-451
Kursk - The German View
Countermine MINE AND OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK. Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson.
Scorched Earth-Hitler's War on Russia. Vol.2.
http://www.military-info.de/wk2/wk2.htm

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Most of the losses of Panthers was as a result of the propensity to failure, before that by enemy fire. Pz Kw V Panther # 435 of Pz Abt 51 - Kursk 1943 .............................
Most of the losses of Panthers was as a result of the propensity to failure, before that by enemy fire. Pz Kw V Panther # 435 of Pz Abt 51 - Kursk 1943 .............................
image006.jpg (30.75 KiB) Viewed 5888 times
Contribution for the operations in Kursk, the new tank Panther ........................
Contribution for the operations in Kursk, the new tank Panther ........................
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

The course of the battle - July 05, 1943. Actions.

Already on July 5, 1943 XXXXVIII Pz K had problems; GD was deployed in a dense formation with marshland to its front and was severely punished by Soviet artillery. Engineers were unable to establish favorable crossing points and many tanks fell victim to the red aviation. (We see here the little air support for the Army Corps)...........

At 06:45 hours the Panthers' regiment assembled in the depression north of Moschenoje, but only would be engaged once the PR GD crossed the ravine in Beresowyj (scheduled for 7:30 hours). At 06:55 was received the report that the GD PR crossing the marshy and strongly mined ground became more and more difficult.

At 08:00 hours the 160 Panthers of the PR 39 left their assembly area towards Beresowyj and at 08:15 hours crossed the railway. 09:45 hours only a few tanks of GD PR managed to cross the ravine; a Tiger suffered a breakdown and blocked the crossing. At 09:50 hours Soviet planes attacked the concentration of German tanks.

At 10:05 hours PR GD tanks advanced through the ravine in Beresowyj. At 12:10 hours, a full battalion of PR GD advancing toward the hill 210.7, but no one of them Panther.

Tactic - Combat Support: the obstacles are used to delay or break the momentum of the attack or deviate the attacker to unfavorable terrain and invariably will be protected by fire. While engineers open gaps, the most important point is to prevent the immobilized tanks become inactives and turn a target in a firing range......

At 16:00 hours the GD had 30 Panthers, 15 Pz Kw IV, four infantry battalions and an anti-tank unit moving toward the northwest corner of Tscherkasskoje.

The Gefreiter Werner Kriegel of Pz.Abt. 51 recalled that:

"[...] In the afternoon of day 5, the Pz.Abt. 51 had only 22 Panther tanks in service. Around 28 were totally destroyed, the rest damaged. My colleagues complained about the final drive and overheating their engines.

While the Pz Abt 52 quickly lost 30% of its strength due to defensive fire and dense minefields before the first defensive belt .......................

Losses of tanks on July 05 amounted to 249, of them 131 mines.

Front line at the end of the period: Machine tractor station - 237.8 - NW part of Tscherkasskoje - area just S of the stream E of Krassnyj Potschinok.

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
Panzer Tactics – German Small-Units Armor Tactics in WWII.
U.S. War Department "Handbook On German Military Forces" (Mar'45) TM-E 30-451
Kursk – The German View
MINE AND COUNTERMINE OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK. Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson.
Scorched Earth-Hitler’s War on Russia. Vol 2.
http://www.military-info.de/wk2/wk2.htm
A MEASURE OF THE REAL-WORLD VALUE OF MIXED MINE SYSTEMS. Dupuy Institute
http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthrea ... 859&page=2
KOSAVE

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Development of actions ........................................
Development of actions ........................................
image010.jpg (72 KiB) Viewed 5828 times
Pz Kw V Panther, with stowage box tools in the rear .......................................
Pz Kw V Panther, with stowage box tools in the rear .......................................
image012.png (309.97 KiB) Viewed 5828 times
A Pz Kw V with problems in its running gear; box tools on the side of the tank ...........................
A Pz Kw V with problems in its running gear; box tools on the side of the tank ...........................
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

The course of the battle - July 06, 1943. Actions.

The night was quiet in the sector of the GD. Just before 04:30 and after heavy fighting, the III./ Grenadier Reg GD took the western part of Tscherkasskoje. The elements of tanks and infantry, who had managed to cross the ravine north of Beresowyj regrouped in the eastern edge of Jarki, waiting to resume the advance. The PR 39 (Panthers) withdrew to Jarki after failing to storm the hill 232.4. The main force of PR GD, which was moving towards Hill 237.8 through Butowo road, could not reach their destination because a bridge had collapsed. Advanced elements of Panthers Reg reached the fork southeast of Tscherkasskoje at 05:00. Towards 0715 the road northeast of Butowo was cleared, and the GD tanks moved along it ..............

Minefields: Tanks of the XXXXVIII Panzer Corps had to wait while engineers cleared gaps through the minefields by hand. Engineers from both, the 11th Panzer Division and Grossdeutschland Panzergrenadier Division, were involved in this effort. However, the attack had to be delayed until 08:30.

At 08:30 the 11. Pz and PR GD advanced from the line 246.0 to 232.4. At 09:35 the head tanks of the div (Reg Strachwitz) were counteracted by Soviet tanks 2 km northeast of 246.0. Strachwitz required all nearby forces remain under his command for an immediate attack, as he had no contact with the Panthers Reg. At 10:25 he had not yet any contact with the Panthers of von Lauchert, and Strachwitz received permission to launch his attack. The division ordered to take Luchanino instead of attacking Alexejewka.

By midafternoon an attack carried out by the PR GD on Soviet positions near Dubrowa failed. After crossing the first antitank ditch southeast of Luchanino, the Panthers Reg, followed by the Grenadiers Reg. and part of the artillery, advanced to the second anti-tank ditch.

At 17:15 the PR GD reported moving west of Dubrowa. On the left, the PR 39 secured the flank against Soviet forces deployed along the river Pena due north. At 18:10, after overcome extensive barbed wire and minefields in the ravines Olkhovka and Bolschoij, the GD attacked Dubrowa. At 21:00 eastern suburbs of Dubrowa achieved. The division was ordered to establish bridgeheads north of Pena in Luchanino.

Losses of tanks on July 06 amounted to 278, of which 69 mines. On this day the command of the Brigade (PR GD and PR 39) was handed over to Oberst Strachwitz.............................

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
Panzer Tactics – German Small-Units Armor Tactics in WWII.
U.S. War Department "Handbook On German Military Forces" (Mar'45) TM-E 30-451
Kursk – The German View
MINE AND COUNTERMINE OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK. Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson.
Scorched Earth-Hitler’s War on Russia. Vol 2.
http://www.military-info.de/wk2/wk2.htm
A MEASURE OF THE REAL-WORLD VALUE OF MIXED MINE SYSTEMS. Dupuy Institute
http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthrea ... 859&page=2
KOSAVE

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Map of the Area...........................................
Map of the Area...........................................
image004.png (114.93 KiB) Viewed 5790 times
Assembly Area of Pz Abt. 52............................
Assembly Area of Pz Abt. 52............................
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

The course of the battle - July 07, 1943. Actions.

On this day finally some significant success was achieved. On the right wing of the GD, the Grenadier Reg reported being in Wercheponje, but actually only reached Gremutshy.

At 06:00 hours the tanks of Pz Brig (Strachwitz) exceeded the antitank trenches near Dubrowa and after refueling were ready to move forward. At dawn the Panthers Reg reported heavy artillery fire and rockets from the enemy. At 06:30 hours the GD was hit by heavy artillery fire and counterattacked on both sides of the road near Dubrowa.

At 10:00 hours the Panthers Reg was 500 meters south of the fork near 254.5. Ten tanks on the heights north of Syrtsewo and Dubrowa in German hands. Syrtsewo defended by strong hostile forces.

At 11:15 the PR GD at 230.1. Syrtsewo in flames. At 16:00 hours a long day of extraordinary struggles came almost to an end. The PR GD claimed the destruction of 30 Soviet tanks. At 16:45 hours tanks of the GD engaged with 29 Soviet tanks on the eastern edge of Syrtsewo. At 20:15 hours came orders to build a defensive line from the suburb of Pokrowka to forests of Sukhaja ​​to Krassnaja Dubrawa.

Tanks losses on July 07 amounted to 197.

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
Panzer Tactics – German Small-Units Armor Tactics in WWII.
U.S. War Department "Handbook On German Military Forces" (Mar'45) TM-E 30-451
Kursk – The German View
MINE AND COUNTERMINE OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK. Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson.
Scorched Earth-Hitler’s War on Russia. Vol 2.
http://www.military-info.de/wk2/wk2.htm
A MEASURE OF THE REAL-WORLD VALUE OF MIXED MINE SYSTEMS. Dupuy Institute
http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthrea ... 859&page=2
KOSAVE

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Map of the Area...........................................
Map of the Area...........................................
image002.png (156.32 KiB) Viewed 5759 times
The Pz Kw V "Panther" R04 of the HQ of PR 39...........................
The Pz Kw V "Panther" R04 of the HQ of PR 39...........................
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Hardly in service and already destroyed, severe damage on the turret of this "Panther" ................................. .
Hardly in service and already destroyed, severe damage on the turret of this "Panther" ................................. .
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

The course of the battle - July 06/07 1943. Two Stories.

A story of Pz Abt 52: It was during the preparation for the attack along the road to Dubrova, about 2 kilometers east of Cherkasskoye on the morning of July 6 when I first saw how a commander succumbed to psychological pressure being unable to continue to fulfill his duty. The enemy was firing salvos of heavy artillery at our positions. The mentioned officer literally collapsed and was unable to do anything to remedy the situation. As a result, we remained under artillery fire and no order to take evasive action was given. Then, one of our most experienced company commanders told the commander to take some action. The latter, however, could only respond: "Yes, do something, get us out of here."

Another account of the fact: "We stayed longer than necessary in the assembly area at Cherkasskoye for an armored attack. Only after the war I knew the reason for the wait, because the Panzer-Regiment "Gross Deutschland" had been unable to arrive on time. Then we suffered a severe enemy artillery fire in that assembly area, and I remember seeing a Panther tank torn apart in a flash by a direct hit from an artillery shell. It was only later that I learned that one of our experienced company commanders, Oberleutnant Gabriel, had taken the initiative. He was hit shortly afterwards and suffered horrific burns. "

Commander of Pz Abt 52 that day was Maj. Teepe (replacing Maj. Sievers).

But by example Oberleutnant Gabriel himself said that this action took place on July 7..............................

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
Panzer Tactics - German Small-Units Armor Tactics in WWII.
U.S. War Department "Handbook on German Military Forces" (Mar'45) TM-E 30-451
Kursk - The German View
Countermine MINE AND OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK. Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson.
Scorched Earth-Hitler's War on Russia. Vol.2.
http://www.military-info.de/wk2/wk2.htm
A MEASURE OF THE REAL-WORLD VALUE OF MIXED SYSTEMS MINE. Dupuy Institute
http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthrea ... 859 & page = 2
KOSAVE
http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00003.html
http://warspot.ru/3055-debyut-panter

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Pz Kw V "Panther" No. 732 and 721 of Pz.Abt. 52 during a pause before the fight (perhaps before the offensive)..................................
Pz Kw V "Panther" No. 732 and 721 of Pz.Abt. 52 during a pause before the fight (perhaps before the offensive)..................................
image018.png (195.35 KiB) Viewed 5672 times
The Pz Kw V "Panther" No. 121 of Pz Abt 51 moving to the front, keeping aerial surveillance ..........................
The Pz Kw V "Panther" No. 121 of Pz Abt 51 moving to the front, keeping aerial surveillance ..........................
image020.png (155.21 KiB) Viewed 5672 times
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
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Re: "Panther" in "Zitadelle"

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; the story follows...................................

The course of the battle - July 08, 1943. Actions.

At 06:45 hours, the GD reported that Soviet resistance was weakening, although the situation was still unclear at Syrtsewo. At 09:00 hours the PR GD was still engaged southeast of Syrtsewo.

By 11:30 hours the assault group on the right wing of the GD had made good progress. Moving east of Syrtsewo the Panther Reg. and one battalion of the GD Gren Reg took the machine and tractor station (MTS) near the western edge of Werchopenje. North of there, the armored regiment was fighting against Soviet tanks arrived from the northwest. The movements of the armored regiment were hampered largely by flanking fire from the hills west of Werchopenje.

The armored group concentrated northeast of Luchanino and planned attack north at 12:00 hours; as soon as the GD crossed the Pena river in Syrtsewo would protect the flank of the div. The high command ordered the 11. Pz and the GD were to attack north toward the Psel river, with the GD veering slightly to Schipy. However, at 14:10 hours the GD was still very committed in the machine and tractor station.

Towards the end of the period, the GD had suffered considerable losses by the intense fire from the west side of the river Pena. In the battles of the day the Panther Reg. and the Stug Abt destroyed 40 Soviet tanks, with not inconsiderable own losses. The Gross Deutschland Division was attacked by the 3rd Mechanized Brigade and the 49th Tank Brigade of the 3rd Mechanized Corps plus the 200th Tank Brigade of the 6th Tank Corps.

First line at the end of the period: Road in 242.1 - Werchopenje - south edge of Werchopenje - E River Pena - part N of Syrtsewo.

Sources: http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/de/ ... uppenteile
Panzer Tactics – German Small-Units Armor Tactics in WWII.
U.S. War Department "Handbook On German Military Forces" (Mar'45) TM-E 30-451
Kursk – The German View
MINE AND COUNTERMINE OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK. Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson.
Scorched Earth-Hitler’s War on Russia. Vol 2.
http://www.military-info.de/wk2/wk2.htm
A MEASURE OF THE REAL-WORLD VALUE OF MIXED MINE SYSTEMS. Dupuy Institute
http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthrea ... 859&page=2
KOSAVE

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
Pz Kw V &quot;Panther&quot; Ausf. D of the Pz Abt 52 destroyed in the fighting during the offensive ............................................<br />http://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/germany/tanks/panther-tank/KO_Panther_Ausf_D_52nd_Panzer_Battalion_and_Sd.Kfz_263_Battle_of_Kursk_1943.jpg
Pz Kw V "Panther" Ausf. D of the Pz Abt 52 destroyed in the fighting during the offensive ............................................
http://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/germany/tanks/panther-tank/KO_Panther_Ausf_D_52nd_Panzer_Battalion_and_Sd.Kfz_263_Battle_of_Kursk_1943.jpg
image004.png (165.91 KiB) Viewed 5651 times
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
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