Type 44 Panzer Division, Staff/Staff HG OB

Richard H. Evans · Post by **Richard H. Evans** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:22 pm

I am a new member in need of some assitance. I am trying to flesh-out (vehicles and personnel) the Type 44, Panzer Division Staff and Staff Headquarters OB for wargaming purposes. I have consulted Niehorster, but he goes no further then KStN 51 1-11-1941 for a 1942 Armored Division Headquarters. Nafziger gives little if any detail excepting an OB for a "Escort Company". Any detail would be greatly appreciated!

Richard

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:23 pm

Hello!

I am afraid the KStN 51 from 1.7.1944 is lost. I can´t remember that I saw it on the microfiché I have.

\Christoph

Richard H. Evans · Post by **Richard H. Evans** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:25 pm

Christoph,

Thanks for the reply! Would there perhaps be a 1943 version?

Richard

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:22 pm

Richard H. Evans wrote:Christoph,

Thanks for the reply! Would there perhaps be a 1943 version?

Richard

Hello Richard

These are the versions which existed according to the official overview documents.
51 Kdo. Pz. Div. 01.10.37, 28.08.40, 01.02.41 (Behelf)
51 Kdo. Pz. Div., Kdo. Inf. Div. (mot) 01.11.41
51 Kdo. Pz. Div., Kdo. Pz. Gren. Div. 01.07.44
51a Kdo. Pz. Div. mit Div. Begl. Kp., Kdo. Pz. Gren. Div. mit Div. Begl.Kp. 01.12.43

Next week I plan to make a new "printout session" at the library and then I will look which of those is still existing. Two early versions are reproduced in the KStN section of my site.
If nobody comes up with the answer on this forum until next monday please remind me via pm here on the forum to look into the microfiché.

\Christoph

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:28 am

Christoph,

It is there already. The 1.7.44 KStN 51 is a combined KStN, for both the Panzer- and Panzer-Grenadier-Division.

Richard, the authorised vehicles in the Kommandostab (Division HQ) were all concentrated in the socalled Kommandant des Stabsquartiers.
The KStN strength was not the same as the official authorised strength for the Panzer-Division:

Here's the KStN strength:
23 Officers, 10 Officials, 52 NCO's, 76 Privates
83 rifles, 70 pistols, 4 machinepistols
1 Kraftrad, 6 Krafträder mit Seitenwagen
16 Pkw: 5 le Pkw, 5 mittl. Pkw, 4 mittl. Pkw (gl.), 1 schw. Pkw (gl.) and 1 le Pkw (gl.) in the Kfz. I-Trupp
16 Lkw: 4 Lkw 2t, 7 Lkw 3t, 2 le KOM (15 seats), 2 mittl. KOM (30 seats) (1 as command vehicle) and 1 Lkw 2t (gl.) in the Kfz. I-Trupp.

The official Panzer-Division 44 strength:
23 Officers, 10 Officials, 51 NCO's, 76 Privates
82 rifles, 70 pistols, 4 machinepistols
1 Kraftrad, 7 Krafträder mit Seitenwagen
15 Pkw: 5 le Pkw, 5 mittl. Pkw, 4 mittl. Pkw (gl.), 1 schw. Pkw (gl.)
16 Lkw: 4 Lkw 2t, 7 Lkw 3t, 2 le KOM (15 seats), 2 mittl. KOM (30 seats) (1 as command vehicle) and 1 Lkw 2t (gl.) in the Kfz. I-Trupp.

The Gliederung for the Panzer-Division 44 shows the Division HQ having 2 le MG. This is not found back in the socalled Stärkeberechnung for such a unit. There are some other mistakes on the Gliederung as well.

I hope this was what you were after,

Piet

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:31 am

Hello Piet!

What do you mean by "It is there already"? Did you find it in the microfiché from BAMA or do you mean it is already here in this thread? :-)

\Christoph

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:58 am

Christoph,

It's on microfiche. Do you have the complete set of fiches? It's really there, and not once, not twice: three times!

Piet

Leo Niehorster · Post by **Leo Niehorster** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:31 am

The divisional headquarters escorts company (Begleitkompanie einer Panzerdivision - KStN 126, dated 1.03.44) is also available on mircofiche.

Grossdeutschland, of course, had had its own divisional headquarters escort company KStN much earlier, as of 12.01.43. Even so, by mid-1943 all Panzer divisions were already authorized to create their own headquarters escort companies using platoons (TE) KStN already published, or even extracting platoon organizations from full KStN companies. These companies were very similar to the GD organization.

Cheers
Leo

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:59 pm

Piet Duits wrote:Christoph,

It's on microfiche. Do you have the complete set of fiches? It's really there, and not once, not twice: three times!

Piet

Yes I have all sets. So i just missed it when browsing. Thanks!

\Christoph

Richard H. Evans · Post by **Richard H. Evans** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:47 pm

Piet,

Thanks so much for the info, this is just what I was looking for.

When you say the vehicles are "concentrated in the socalled Kommandant des Stabsquartiers"(HQ commander?), does this mean they were in a motor pool of sorts under the control of the HQ commander as noted in Mr. Niehorster's "grey books" for 1940-42?

Regards

Richard

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:56 pm

Richard H. Evans wrote:Piet,

Thanks so much for the info, this is just what I was looking for.

When you say the vehicles are "concentrated in the socalled Kommandant des Stabsquartiers"(HQ commander?), does this mean they were in a motor pool of sorts under the control of the HQ commander as noted in Mr. Niehorster's "grey books" for 1940-42?

Regards

Richard

Yes the vehicles were organized within this section of the Stab. have a look into the KStN section of my site there you will see how this looks like with an 1941 KStN 51.
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm

\Christoph

Richard H. Evans · Post by **Richard H. Evans** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:56 pm

Christoph,

Again, thanks for the info! I went to your website - very nice and I found a load of info I need.

Richard

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:15 pm

ESCORT COMPANY

Just out of interest, when I was accumulating KStN's for PD44, all I could find was KStN 126 1Feb44. It's upstairs but off the top og my head it included sPak Platoon. Deleting that brought the unit personnel to correct figure for PD44. 3 Officers, 32 NCO's, 153 Men (Incl. 9 Hiwis), Total 188.

Roger

Richard H. Evans · Post by **Richard H. Evans** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:14 pm

Roger Griffiths wrote:ESCORT COMPANY

Just out of interest, when I was accumulating KStN's for PD44, all I could find was KStN 126 1Feb44. It's upstairs but off the top og my head it included sPak Platoon. Deleting that brought the unit personnel to correct figure for PD44. 3 Officers, 32 NCO's, 153 Men (Incl. 9 Hiwis), Total 188.

Roger

Roger,

I have an OB from the Nafziger Collection dated 1 Feb 44 (No KStN #) that includes: Staff, 1st Rifle Platoon (Schutzen) with HMG and mortar sections, 2nd AT Platoon with towed (2-ton LKW) 75mm PaK 40, 3rd FlaK Platoon and 4th Recon Platoon (Mcl), train, Vehicle Maint. and Admin. Is this the same as yours. i.e. KStN 126??

Richard

Richard H. Evans · Post by **Richard H. Evans** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:25 pm

Piet Duits wrote:Christoph,

It is there already. The 1.7.44 KStN 51 is a combined KStN, for both the Panzer- and Panzer-Grenadier-Division.

Richard, the authorised vehicles in the Kommandostab (Division HQ) were all concentrated in the socalled Kommandant des Stabsquartiers.
The KStN strength was not the same as the official authorised strength for the Panzer-Division:

Here's the KStN strength:
23 Officers, 10 Officials, 52 NCO's, 76 Privates
83 rifles, 70 pistols, 4 machinepistols
1 Kraftrad, 6 Krafträder mit Seitenwagen
16 Pkw: 5 le Pkw, 5 mittl. Pkw, 4 mittl. Pkw (gl.), 1 schw. Pkw (gl.) and 1 le Pkw (gl.) in the Kfz. I-Trupp
16 Lkw: 4 Lkw 2t, 7 Lkw 3t, 2 le KOM (15 seats), 2 mittl. KOM (30 seats) (1 as command vehicle) and 1 Lkw 2t (gl.) in the Kfz. I-Trupp.

The official Panzer-Division 44 strength:
23 Officers, 10 Officials, 51 NCO's, 76 Privates
82 rifles, 70 pistols, 4 machinepistols
1 Kraftrad, 7 Krafträder mit Seitenwagen
15 Pkw: 5 le Pkw, 5 mittl. Pkw, 4 mittl. Pkw (gl.), 1 schw. Pkw (gl.)
16 Lkw: 4 Lkw 2t, 7 Lkw 3t, 2 le KOM (15 seats), 2 mittl. KOM (30 seats) (1 as command vehicle) and 1 Lkw 2t (gl.) in the Kfz. I-Trupp.

The Gliederung for the Panzer-Division 44 shows the Division HQ having 2 le MG. This is not found back in the socalled Stärkeberechnung for such a unit. There are some other mistakes on the Gliederung as well.

Piet or Christoph

Would either of you gentlemen have additional info on the breakdown of sections, detachments, etc in KStN 1.7.44 KStN 51 for PD44? Leo Niehorster lists a Dvi HQ, Div Guards, Mcl Det, Maint Sect and Motor pool in KStN 51 of 1.11.41. Do you think PD44 had the same arrangement?

Thanks again for all your help!

Richard