In early 1945, Panzerdivision Clausewitz went into action in Fallersleben/Niedersachsen. It had negligible armor, but two of the Panthers were equipped with IR device (probably "Sperber").
Some operational account remains for April 21, 1945: Being lead by Sd.Kfz.234/1 recon vehicles the last 10 of the tanks approched the US AT position by Weser/Elber canal (76mm AT Gun M-2) First assault started at 2 AM. The Americans were alerted and flares were launched. The lead Panther was hit and fell into a ditch. IR Panthers took their turn, which located the AT guns and fired some 20 rounds, destroying the pakfront. The opposing artillery men and supporting personnel fled in panic. IR Panthers went into persuit and destroyed several trucks and support vehicles
(from http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/ ... nthers.htm)
any more info on the final fate of this outfit?
regards
Xavier
april 21, 1945, Nightfighting Panthers
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
april 21, 1945, Nightfighting Panthers
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit"
Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
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Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero
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Kamen Nevenkin
- Contributor
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:27 am
- Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Biwa
Hi ! 
I believe that these Panthers belonged to 4./PzR 11. This company was equiped with PzV with infrared devices(Biwa). It saw action in the central sector of the Western front during April'45. According to records of GenInspPzTr, PzD "Cl" never recieved any PzV with Biwa. Also during this
time period this division was alraedy almost destroyed. And some more info - PzD "Cl" was in action in Lauenburg area(s/e of Hamburg)
Kamen
I believe that these Panthers belonged to 4./PzR 11. This company was equiped with PzV with infrared devices(Biwa). It saw action in the central sector of the Western front during April'45. According to records of GenInspPzTr, PzD "Cl" never recieved any PzV with Biwa. Also during this
time period this division was alraedy almost destroyed. And some more info - PzD "Cl" was in action in Lauenburg area(s/e of Hamburg)
Kamen
-
Paul Hanson
- Contributor
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:33 pm
I/R Panther
The use of IR by German nachtjäger(armored or otherwise)units is vastly over-rated and over-estimated.
I./24, I/130, I./6 and I./11 all began IR training at Fallingbostel in fall '44, all with nice new IR Panthers. The crisis in Hungary led to all four abtn being sent there, all without their IR gear. By the time things settled out, it was late winter '45. The only units to operationally use FG 1250s were four designated independent kpn: 3./6 in Hungary and 1./29, 1./130 and 4./11 at the Seelow Heights. IR use was actually quite short-lived, because Soviet strength was so overwhelming that minor tactical success from IR assaults yielded no operational gains, and the Sovs were too strong to depend on night attacks alone. They also may have used searchlights to defeat IR. No IR use in the West, ever. That apocryphal account of its use is bogus, merely someone making excuses for inferior night tactics. Other accounts from vets said the stuff was heavy and unwieldy, and not all that effective.
PH
I./24, I/130, I./6 and I./11 all began IR training at Fallingbostel in fall '44, all with nice new IR Panthers. The crisis in Hungary led to all four abtn being sent there, all without their IR gear. By the time things settled out, it was late winter '45. The only units to operationally use FG 1250s were four designated independent kpn: 3./6 in Hungary and 1./29, 1./130 and 4./11 at the Seelow Heights. IR use was actually quite short-lived, because Soviet strength was so overwhelming that minor tactical success from IR assaults yielded no operational gains, and the Sovs were too strong to depend on night attacks alone. They also may have used searchlights to defeat IR. No IR use in the West, ever. That apocryphal account of its use is bogus, merely someone making excuses for inferior night tactics. Other accounts from vets said the stuff was heavy and unwieldy, and not all that effective.
PH
-
Kamen Nevenkin
- Contributor
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:27 am
- Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
BIWA
Hi !
Paul statement, that no Panther with IR equipment
was ever used against the Allies, is correct. I whant
to apologize for the posting of incorrect information.
When I wrote my message I used only my memory. I checked
some files in my archive(various files of GenInspdPzTr
and OrgAbt/GenStbH) and now I'll try to "enlight"
this
topic(IR Panthers).
An document issued by GenInspdPzTr on 26.6.44 states that,
according to Guderian orders, I./PzLehrR 130 will be the
first unit equiped with IR-PzV. This unit was created on
29.7.44,but was sent to the front(Western) without IR devices.
In the beginning of Oct'44 I./130 was sent back to the rear
(Fallingbostel training ground). Between 19.10 and 22.10.44
a total of 56 "simple" PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 27.9.44 it was ordered to send I./PzR 6 (tactically subordinated
to PzLehrDiv) to Fallingbostel training ground for rebuilding.
Between 29.10 and 4.11.44 a total of 33 "simple"
PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 7.11.44 I./130 was renamed in I./6 and vice versa.
On 29.8.44 it was orderd to send I./PzR 11(tactically subordinated
to 8.PzD) to Grafenwoenr training ground for
rebuilding. Between 22.10 and 27.10.44 a total of 28 "simple"
PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 4.11.44 an subordination of 4./PzR 11 to newly formed PzBr 150
was ordered.
A toatal of 27 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./6 between
17.11 and 4.12.44
A toatal of 32 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./11 between
11.11 and 2.12.44
4 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./130 on 9.12.44
All these units saw action in Hungary during Dec'44. The area
between lakes Balaton and Velence was, probably, the first
battleground where IR-PzV's were used.
On 5.1.45 it was ordered to send I./130 back to its parent division.
All available Panthers were left behind.
On 11.1.45 it was ordered to send I./24 to Hungary. This Abt was
tactically subordinated to 1.PzD. It was to be shipped from
Grafenwoenr training ground with 14 "simple" PzV. Another 46 "simple"
PzV's were to recieved during the transportation. However, according
to the records of GenInspdPzTr show that between 17.1 and 25.1.45 a
total of 50 "simple" PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit. Probably
the remaining 10 PzV's were IR-PzV's(or some of them) left behind by
other units.
On 12.2.45 it was ordered one Kp of Fuehrer-Grenadier Division(1./101)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20. However, this order
was never materialized.
10 IR PzV's were recieved by 3./6 on 7.3.45. Right after that this Kp
was sent to its parent division(3.PzD)
On 13.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of 19.PzD and 26.PzD(4./27 and 3./26)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20 each.
On 16.3.45 it was ordered one PzKp of I./29 and one PzGrKp(of PzGR 25)
to be equiped with IR machines.
On 23.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of I./130, I./PzR "Brandenburg" and
KGr "Dreyer"(4./PzR 11) to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz
251/20 each.
On 23.3.45 10 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to the Kp of I./130 which
was mentioned above. Soon after that this Kp was shipped from Wuensdorf
training ground to Muencheberg area where it was tactically subordinated
to 25.PzGD.
On 1.4.45 1./29 and 2./PzGrR 25 was located in Wuensdorf training ground,
and 4./27, 3./26, 4./11 and 4./"Br" - in Fallingbostel training ground.
The same document states that a Kp of I./39 was sent from its parent
division(17.PzD) to Fallingbostel to be equiped with IR-PzV's.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./29 on 5.4.45.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to 4./11 on 8.4.45.
On 19.4.45 the personal of 3./26 was shipped to PzD "Muencheberg",
the personal of 4./27 - back to 19.PzD and the personal of 4./"Br"
- back to PzGD "Kurmark".
On 19.4.45 it was ordered 4./11 alongside with PzGKp "Uelzen"(equiped
with SPW's with IR) to be shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to
7.PzD in Neusterlitz area. However, this order was chaged twice and
on 22.4.45 both Kp were attached to KGr "Ritter" in Zossen area.
Have a nice day,
Kamen
Paul statement, that no Panther with IR equipment
was ever used against the Allies, is correct. I whant
to apologize for the posting of incorrect information.
When I wrote my message I used only my memory. I checked
some files in my archive(various files of GenInspdPzTr
and OrgAbt/GenStbH) and now I'll try to "enlight"
thistopic(IR Panthers).
An document issued by GenInspdPzTr on 26.6.44 states that,
according to Guderian orders, I./PzLehrR 130 will be the
first unit equiped with IR-PzV. This unit was created on
29.7.44,but was sent to the front(Western) without IR devices.
In the beginning of Oct'44 I./130 was sent back to the rear
(Fallingbostel training ground). Between 19.10 and 22.10.44
a total of 56 "simple" PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 27.9.44 it was ordered to send I./PzR 6 (tactically subordinated
to PzLehrDiv) to Fallingbostel training ground for rebuilding.
Between 29.10 and 4.11.44 a total of 33 "simple"
PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 7.11.44 I./130 was renamed in I./6 and vice versa.
On 29.8.44 it was orderd to send I./PzR 11(tactically subordinated
to 8.PzD) to Grafenwoenr training ground for
rebuilding. Between 22.10 and 27.10.44 a total of 28 "simple"
PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 4.11.44 an subordination of 4./PzR 11 to newly formed PzBr 150
was ordered.
A toatal of 27 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./6 between
17.11 and 4.12.44
A toatal of 32 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./11 between
11.11 and 2.12.44
4 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./130 on 9.12.44
All these units saw action in Hungary during Dec'44. The area
between lakes Balaton and Velence was, probably, the first
battleground where IR-PzV's were used.
On 5.1.45 it was ordered to send I./130 back to its parent division.
All available Panthers were left behind.
On 11.1.45 it was ordered to send I./24 to Hungary. This Abt was
tactically subordinated to 1.PzD. It was to be shipped from
Grafenwoenr training ground with 14 "simple" PzV. Another 46 "simple"
PzV's were to recieved during the transportation. However, according
to the records of GenInspdPzTr show that between 17.1 and 25.1.45 a
total of 50 "simple" PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit. Probably
the remaining 10 PzV's were IR-PzV's(or some of them) left behind by
other units.
On 12.2.45 it was ordered one Kp of Fuehrer-Grenadier Division(1./101)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20. However, this order
was never materialized.
10 IR PzV's were recieved by 3./6 on 7.3.45. Right after that this Kp
was sent to its parent division(3.PzD)
On 13.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of 19.PzD and 26.PzD(4./27 and 3./26)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20 each.
On 16.3.45 it was ordered one PzKp of I./29 and one PzGrKp(of PzGR 25)
to be equiped with IR machines.
On 23.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of I./130, I./PzR "Brandenburg" and
KGr "Dreyer"(4./PzR 11) to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz
251/20 each.
On 23.3.45 10 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to the Kp of I./130 which
was mentioned above. Soon after that this Kp was shipped from Wuensdorf
training ground to Muencheberg area where it was tactically subordinated
to 25.PzGD.
On 1.4.45 1./29 and 2./PzGrR 25 was located in Wuensdorf training ground,
and 4./27, 3./26, 4./11 and 4./"Br" - in Fallingbostel training ground.
The same document states that a Kp of I./39 was sent from its parent
division(17.PzD) to Fallingbostel to be equiped with IR-PzV's.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./29 on 5.4.45.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to 4./11 on 8.4.45.
On 19.4.45 the personal of 3./26 was shipped to PzD "Muencheberg",
the personal of 4./27 - back to 19.PzD and the personal of 4./"Br"
- back to PzGD "Kurmark".
On 19.4.45 it was ordered 4./11 alongside with PzGKp "Uelzen"(equiped
with SPW's with IR) to be shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to
7.PzD in Neusterlitz area. However, this order was chaged twice and
on 22.4.45 both Kp were attached to KGr "Ritter" in Zossen area.
Have a nice day,
Kamen
-
Paul Hanson
- Contributor
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:33 pm
IR Panther allocations
Kamen;
Your post is great. That's even more detailed information than I had. Thanks for posting your info.
Paul
Your post is great. That's even more detailed information than I had. Thanks for posting your info.
Paul
-
charlie don't surf
- Associate
- Posts: 844
- Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:26 am
- Location: Sweden
IR
Hi Guys,
Kamens post is in general correct - but some of the units never recieved IR Panthers. Units that really saw combat with IR Panthers was a Versuchs unit under command of a Haas ( ca 4-5 Panthers) . It was in Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Otherwise during the Winter they cancelled the operations with IR device becauce of the snow which made the IR "Blind"
Later the 1./29 (Rasim) saw combat at Seelow heights 4. /11 southeast of Berlin and finally the 1/130 in area Berlin. Reports says (perhaps) that a couple of vehicles of 1/BR (staff) saw action with the IR.
Small groups was tested as well but without Panthers. Some crews saw a "lehrgang" but (ex Pz.Rgt 27) saw never action with the Panthers.
The 3./6 recieved its Panther and was transported to Hungary in March 45 but saw never action - as they were afraid it would fall in the advancing russian hands. The crew had one problem and it was to identify foe or friend throug the device - it was like looking on a old movie and you could not see if it was a T-34 or a Panther. Thats why they "hold" fire many times. On each IR Panther it was 2-3 Soldiers that was guarded the Tank armed with IR MP 44. They were also guarded on the back by a steel plate.
( I cant post pictures - but if you go to www. missing -links you will see a Panther from 1./29 based on facts .Interwievs with Vets etc).
Well just a short reply...
Well concerning the units I/130...I/24...I/11 is correct they rushed to Hungary in Dec.44 but without any IR equippment -one Comp of I/130 (1:st) stayed in Germany as a base for the later I/130 and continiud training with IR.
The main reason they did not use the IR in Dec - Feb 44-45 was two reasons...the equippment was not reliable enough and as i said they did not used IR during the winter and snow. Just a short history - over and out
regards Mirko
Kamens post is in general correct - but some of the units never recieved IR Panthers. Units that really saw combat with IR Panthers was a Versuchs unit under command of a Haas ( ca 4-5 Panthers) . It was in Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Otherwise during the Winter they cancelled the operations with IR device becauce of the snow which made the IR "Blind"
Later the 1./29 (Rasim) saw combat at Seelow heights 4. /11 southeast of Berlin and finally the 1/130 in area Berlin. Reports says (perhaps) that a couple of vehicles of 1/BR (staff) saw action with the IR.
Small groups was tested as well but without Panthers. Some crews saw a "lehrgang" but (ex Pz.Rgt 27) saw never action with the Panthers.
The 3./6 recieved its Panther and was transported to Hungary in March 45 but saw never action - as they were afraid it would fall in the advancing russian hands. The crew had one problem and it was to identify foe or friend throug the device - it was like looking on a old movie and you could not see if it was a T-34 or a Panther. Thats why they "hold" fire many times. On each IR Panther it was 2-3 Soldiers that was guarded the Tank armed with IR MP 44. They were also guarded on the back by a steel plate.
( I cant post pictures - but if you go to www. missing -links you will see a Panther from 1./29 based on facts .Interwievs with Vets etc).
Well just a short reply...
Well concerning the units I/130...I/24...I/11 is correct they rushed to Hungary in Dec.44 but without any IR equippment -one Comp of I/130 (1:st) stayed in Germany as a base for the later I/130 and continiud training with IR.
The main reason they did not use the IR in Dec - Feb 44-45 was two reasons...the equippment was not reliable enough and as i said they did not used IR during the winter and snow. Just a short history - over and out
regards Mirko
-
Paul Hanson
- Contributor
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:33 pm
IR Panthers
Daniel: my statement should have said "western Allies" since the Soviets were part of the Allies.
Mirko: thanks for chiming in. This turned into a very informative thread on the IR Panthers.
One quick addendum to all reading this: the photo in the Concord Panther book of the Solution B Panther is faked up and Thomas Andersen has cofirmed that he was led astray by the "authors" of this photo. So do not rely on this photo for guidance on the IR Panther.
Paul
Mirko: thanks for chiming in. This turned into a very informative thread on the IR Panthers.
One quick addendum to all reading this: the photo in the Concord Panther book of the Solution B Panther is faked up and Thomas Andersen has cofirmed that he was led astray by the "authors" of this photo. So do not rely on this photo for guidance on the IR Panther.
Paul
-
charlie don't surf
- Associate
- Posts: 844
- Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:26 am
- Location: Sweden
Various units received IR Panthers including 116th Panzer Division (3rd company of 24th Panzer Regiment, Western Front, Summer of 1944), Sixth SS Panzer Army (Hungary, early 1945), Panzer Division Muncheberg and Clausewitz. One combat report is by a veteran of 1st SS Panzer Regiment of 1st SS Panzer Division "LSSAH", who states that few Panthers equipped with infrared night-vision devices possibly from 116th Panzer Division were used in 1944/45 during the Ardennes Offensive. In April of 1945, Panthers equipped with IR equipment (solution B) joined Panzer Division Clausewitz and in mid April near Uelzen destroyed entire platoon of British Comet cruiser tanks. Also on April 21st of 1945, same Panthers overran an American anti-tank position on the Weser-Elbe Canal.
It is reported but not supported that single unit equipped with Jagdpanthers also received and used infrared night-vision devices - Infrarot-Scheinwerfer, just as those mounted on Panthers.
from: http://www.achtungpanzer.com
What about these statements. Does anyone know anything about the IR jagdpanthers and which unit the panther on the picture belongs to?
regards
Hi
Forget the 116 PD and the 3/24. It is however correct the 3 Schwadron of Pz.Rgt 24 was schooled with IR equippment in Dec 44 and at that time they have left 116 PD..In January I/24 (1,2,3 and 4 Schwadron) recived their IR Panther but the IR equppiment was never used and reinstalled on the 3.Schw. Panthers.- see my above post - i have already explained. Forget ALL the Fantasy storys and rumours. The rest of this( charlies) post i dont even wants to comment.(Jag är ledsen men skit är skit)
About Jagdpanther ? can you explain how that should work ??...I have report they wants to add IR equippment on many Tanks but techniquelly it was not possible- for the driver yes...but for the gun..No.
No IR was used on the Western front
regards Mirko
Forget the 116 PD and the 3/24. It is however correct the 3 Schwadron of Pz.Rgt 24 was schooled with IR equippment in Dec 44 and at that time they have left 116 PD..In January I/24 (1,2,3 and 4 Schwadron) recived their IR Panther but the IR equppiment was never used and reinstalled on the 3.Schw. Panthers.- see my above post - i have already explained. Forget ALL the Fantasy storys and rumours. The rest of this( charlies) post i dont even wants to comment.(Jag är ledsen men skit är skit)
About Jagdpanther ? can you explain how that should work ??...I have report they wants to add IR equippment on many Tanks but techniquelly it was not possible- for the driver yes...but for the gun..No.
No IR was used on the Western front
regards Mirko
I would also like to say this story,yes story about "solution A and B is also just a constructed name of a rumour - the author or the responsible person has admit it was just a guess from a vet.... and this "solution" was just growing and growing and gr.....
The Panthers had only IR BG 1250 for the commander, not for the driver,not for the gunner and no MG for the commander.
Ok..Just to show my friendly attitude (haha)..the Versuchs unit under command of Haas had acctually Panther A with IR for the driver (for test) in Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Those panthers had also other features that was interesting. But they was probably sent back to Germany when the snow came. Remember the IR at that time could ONLY operate under very good weather conditions,it was not good with,rain,fog,snow or fullmoon etc etc...
Crew from 4./11 (before they went to Pz.Brig 150) used special or learned special "moon reports" when it would be and not be.
So the best condition for using IR was acctually again in March -April 45.
Mirko
The Panthers had only IR BG 1250 for the commander, not for the driver,not for the gunner and no MG for the commander.
Ok..Just to show my friendly attitude (haha)..the Versuchs unit under command of Haas had acctually Panther A with IR for the driver (for test) in Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Those panthers had also other features that was interesting. But they was probably sent back to Germany when the snow came. Remember the IR at that time could ONLY operate under very good weather conditions,it was not good with,rain,fog,snow or fullmoon etc etc...
Crew from 4./11 (before they went to Pz.Brig 150) used special or learned special "moon reports" when it would be and not be.
So the best condition for using IR was acctually again in March -April 45.
Mirko
-
Kamen Nevenkin
- Contributor
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:27 am
- Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
BIWA
Mirko,
thank you very much for the info ! I want to add two
more points:
1.According to russian veteran's memories there was a great
fear of nightfighting tanks among russian troops during
"Konrad"-operations. Soviet units used big bonfires during
nightime to "blind" german IR-equipment. The same veteran
states that during a night combat his unit was able to capture
a self-propeled machine - "samohodka" - with mounted IR-equipment
on it. Germans tried their best to recapture the machine, but
failed. In russian the phrase "samohodka" is used to describe a
wide variety of machines and I believe that in this case it was SdKfz
251/20.
2.There were two "waves" of units that were to be equiped with
IR-equipment - first - during Oct/Nov'44 and second - during
Mar'45. I explain this with the fact that GenInspPzTr needed some time
to absorbe all COMBAT expiriece gained by the units equiped with
nightfighting Panthers and after that - to create combat and training
manuals/instructions. May be you're right when you state that very few of the "Biwa"
-panthers saw action during the winter of 44/45, but, I'm sure that
such actions occured.
Have a nice day,
Kamen
thank you very much for the info ! I want to add two
more points:
1.According to russian veteran's memories there was a great
fear of nightfighting tanks among russian troops during
"Konrad"-operations. Soviet units used big bonfires during
nightime to "blind" german IR-equipment. The same veteran
states that during a night combat his unit was able to capture
a self-propeled machine - "samohodka" - with mounted IR-equipment
on it. Germans tried their best to recapture the machine, but
failed. In russian the phrase "samohodka" is used to describe a
wide variety of machines and I believe that in this case it was SdKfz
251/20.
2.There were two "waves" of units that were to be equiped with
IR-equipment - first - during Oct/Nov'44 and second - during
Mar'45. I explain this with the fact that GenInspPzTr needed some time
to absorbe all COMBAT expiriece gained by the units equiped with
nightfighting Panthers and after that - to create combat and training
manuals/instructions. May be you're right when you state that very few of the "Biwa"
-panthers saw action during the winter of 44/45, but, I'm sure that
such actions occured.
Have a nice day,
Kamen
Hi Kamen
When it comes to russian Veterans reliability i must admit i am very critical.
Well Concerning the Konrad operations :
As i wrote,it was a Versuchs unit in Dec/Jan 44-45 in Hungary under command of Haas. The Konrad 1 Operation started on the 1.Jan.45 by a main attack made by IV.SS.Pz.Korps through the Mountains northwest of Budapest.
But a "smaller confusing attack" was made in area north of Szekesfehervar by elements of Pz.Rgt 6 (3.PD) and part of Pz.Rgt 1.(and other units)
In that area- one night- a great number of Soviet tanks was destroyed. (I have talked with vets. about that) and my guess - here was the unit under Haas for the first time in action and after that they went back to Germany(maybe they tested also a UHU here to lightening up the terrain). I think this nightattack gave the russian many sleepness nights and they sort of secured their troops for ev. that germans will and are using IR tanks. During the Konrad III the I/24 arriwed without IR,which was theoretically the only unit that could have IR on their tanks at that battle.Now the ground was covered with snow and it was snowing. Therefore i think NO units had IR during the Konrad operations (except unit Haas in the first day or days of Konrad 1).
All reports said that the IR did not work in snow - to much reflexions.
I would be delightet indeed to read that histoty of the try to recapture the IR tank and the bonfires. Many years ago i had contact with Vets from I/24 and they all claim that they had no IR on their tanks but they wished they had.
The russian had fear for German IR tanks in area of Berlin ,therefore a plausible theory of why using the huge serchlights. But after a while they get report that the German IR units was more or less destroying themself by the techniquelly breakdowns. Even at that time-in April 45- the equippment was far from ready in that matter and the crew had not really combat IR school (tactically and tactically) - it was still in April a sort of Experiment.
PS : sorry for my poor english
Best regards Mirko
When it comes to russian Veterans reliability i must admit i am very critical.
Well Concerning the Konrad operations :
As i wrote,it was a Versuchs unit in Dec/Jan 44-45 in Hungary under command of Haas. The Konrad 1 Operation started on the 1.Jan.45 by a main attack made by IV.SS.Pz.Korps through the Mountains northwest of Budapest.
But a "smaller confusing attack" was made in area north of Szekesfehervar by elements of Pz.Rgt 6 (3.PD) and part of Pz.Rgt 1.(and other units)
In that area- one night- a great number of Soviet tanks was destroyed. (I have talked with vets. about that) and my guess - here was the unit under Haas for the first time in action and after that they went back to Germany(maybe they tested also a UHU here to lightening up the terrain). I think this nightattack gave the russian many sleepness nights and they sort of secured their troops for ev. that germans will and are using IR tanks. During the Konrad III the I/24 arriwed without IR,which was theoretically the only unit that could have IR on their tanks at that battle.Now the ground was covered with snow and it was snowing. Therefore i think NO units had IR during the Konrad operations (except unit Haas in the first day or days of Konrad 1).
All reports said that the IR did not work in snow - to much reflexions.
I would be delightet indeed to read that histoty of the try to recapture the IR tank and the bonfires. Many years ago i had contact with Vets from I/24 and they all claim that they had no IR on their tanks but they wished they had.
The russian had fear for German IR tanks in area of Berlin ,therefore a plausible theory of why using the huge serchlights. But after a while they get report that the German IR units was more or less destroying themself by the techniquelly breakdowns. Even at that time-in April 45- the equippment was far from ready in that matter and the crew had not really combat IR school (tactically and tactically) - it was still in April a sort of Experiment.
PS : sorry for my poor english
Best regards Mirko
Hi Kamen
When it comes to russian Veterans reliability i must admit i am very critical.
Well Concerning the Konrad operations :
As i wrote,it was a Versuchs unit in Dec/Jan 44-45 in Hungary under command of Haas. The Konrad 1 Operation started on the 1.Jan.45 by a main attack made by IV.SS.Pz.Korps through the Mountains northwest of Budapest.
But a "smaller confusing attack" was made in area north of Szekesfehervar by elements of Pz.Rgt 6 (3.PD) and part of Pz.Rgt 1.(and other units)
In that area- one night- a great number of Soviet tanks was destroyed. (I have talked with vets. about that) and my guess - here was the unit under Haas for the first time in action and after that they went back to Germany(maybe they tested also a UHU here to lightening up the terrain). I think this nightattack gave the russian many sleepness nights and they sort of secured their troops for ev. that germans will and are using IR tanks. During the Konrad III the I/24 arriwed without IR,which was theoretically the only unit that could have IR on their tanks at that battle.Now the ground was covered with snow and it was snowing. Therefore i think NO units had IR during the Konrad operations (except unit Haas in the first day or days of Konrad 1).
All reports said that the IR did not work in snow - to much reflexions.
I would be delightet indeed to read that histoty of the try to recapture the IR tank and the bonfires. Many years ago i had contact with Vets from I/24 and they all claim that they had no IR on their tanks but they wished they had.
The russian had fear for German IR tanks in area of Berlin ,therefore a plausible theory of why using the huge serchlights. But after a while they get report that the German IR units was more or less destroying themself by the techniquelly breakdowns. Even at that time-in April 45- the equippment was far from ready in that matter and the crew had not really combat IR school (tactically and tactically) - it was still in April a sort of Experiment.
PS : sorry for my poor english
Best regards Mirko
When it comes to russian Veterans reliability i must admit i am very critical.
Well Concerning the Konrad operations :
As i wrote,it was a Versuchs unit in Dec/Jan 44-45 in Hungary under command of Haas. The Konrad 1 Operation started on the 1.Jan.45 by a main attack made by IV.SS.Pz.Korps through the Mountains northwest of Budapest.
But a "smaller confusing attack" was made in area north of Szekesfehervar by elements of Pz.Rgt 6 (3.PD) and part of Pz.Rgt 1.(and other units)
In that area- one night- a great number of Soviet tanks was destroyed. (I have talked with vets. about that) and my guess - here was the unit under Haas for the first time in action and after that they went back to Germany(maybe they tested also a UHU here to lightening up the terrain). I think this nightattack gave the russian many sleepness nights and they sort of secured their troops for ev. that germans will and are using IR tanks. During the Konrad III the I/24 arriwed without IR,which was theoretically the only unit that could have IR on their tanks at that battle.Now the ground was covered with snow and it was snowing. Therefore i think NO units had IR during the Konrad operations (except unit Haas in the first day or days of Konrad 1).
All reports said that the IR did not work in snow - to much reflexions.
I would be delightet indeed to read that histoty of the try to recapture the IR tank and the bonfires. Many years ago i had contact with Vets from I/24 and they all claim that they had no IR on their tanks but they wished they had.
The russian had fear for German IR tanks in area of Berlin ,therefore a plausible theory of why using the huge serchlights. But after a while they get report that the German IR units was more or less destroying themself by the techniquelly breakdowns. Even at that time-in April 45- the equippment was far from ready in that matter and the crew had not really combat IR school (tactically and tactically) - it was still in April a sort of Experiment.
PS : sorry for my poor english
Best regards Mirko
